On the eighth episode of the second season of Disability Bandwidth, we had the pleasure of speaking with Meenakshi (Meena) Das, an engineer at Microsoft. Meena grew up in India with a stuttering disability and discovered the importance of accessibility while attending school in the United States. Now, her mission in life is to help others, she’s created resources where individuals with disabilities can connect, share stories, and learn from each other. Meena is deeply committed to improving accessibility and making a positive impact on as many people as possible!

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Transcript

[00:00:00] Music

[00:00:05] Nikki Nolan: Welcome to season two at Disability Bandwidth.

[00:00:12] Sam Proulx: A show where we talk with experts in disability about their journey, life and inspiration.

[00:00:16] Nikki Nolan: I’m Nikki Nolan.

[00:00:17] Sam Proulx: and I’m Sam Proulx.

[00:00:18] Let’s get started.

[00:00:19] Nikki Nolan: So, do you mind introducing yourself?

[00:00:21] Meenakshi (Meena) Das: I think I told you that I have a stutter.

[00:00:27] My name is Meena. I am a brown woman with medium long brown hair. I’m wearing a printed long t-shirt, and a dark red lipstick.

[00:00:48] Nikki Nolan: Awesome. And what is your role?

[00:00:51] Meenakshi (Meena) Das: Sure. My day job, I am a software engineer at Microsoft. Although my main role is not accessibility focused,

[00:01:04] I do work on the front end of a proper product. So, I make sure to be the accessibility champion for my team. Try to make sure what we ship is accessible. On the other hand, apart from my day job, I run a support group called Working withDisabilities. We have about 3000 members now around the world.

[00:01:40] It’s a Facebook group and then people share their thoughts. They discuss accommodations and we share job postings and resources.

[00:01:53] That is something that I do apart from my day job.

[00:02:00] Nikki Nolan: Yeah, that’s how I found you. I saw you posting on Instagram and LinkedIn and was just super curious about you. So I’m so excited to have you here and be talking with you. You’ve definitely brought a lot of visibility into accessibility through the way that you write and you post, and thank you so much for being here.

[00:02:19] Meenakshi (Meena) Das: Thank you so much for having me, for being very accommodating. Thanks.

[00:02:24] Nikki Nolan: So one of the things that we’re super curious about is what lights a fire in you? What gets you up in the morning?

[00:02:30] Meenakshi (Meena) Das: I think for me, the one thing that would just really get me going is to give back to people. Because, just a few years back when I was new to college, new to this country too, I did not know about how to navigate my disability, how to ask for help. I didn’t even know what accommodations meant. A few people in my school, they really helped me. They were there for me. So, I guess, I just want to give back to people now. I know it sounds very cliche, but I just want to help, as much as I can. I know that I can’t solve all the world’s problems for accessibility, but I can at least try my best.

[00:03:43] I can at least help two people and like they would help four more people.

[00:03:50] Sam Proulx: And the thing that is so clear, the more of these podcasts we do, the more we can’t do by ourselves, right? We can only make change by working together. And so what got you to decide that a Facebook group, a support group. This is what I’m gonna start and what I’m gonna run and this is some impact that I can make.

[00:04:13] What led you to that and to doing that?

[00:04:15] Meenakshi (Meena) Das: Yeah. So, unlike Facebook, I was a part of a lot of groups of tech groups, of women in technology groups, and then many groups for software engineering,

[00:04:35] I did not find anything particular for disabled professionals, especially those who are trying to look for work. And then at the same time trying to navigate accommodations at work. So, just like I started as a very small group. I guess it was like two or three years back.

[00:05:05] I don’t remember the exact year, but just like two or three years ago. We just had 50, 60 people at that time. And now we have 3,400 people. It’s a very, very active group. One of the things I try to do is share opportunities in the group. I’m a part of like so many mailing lists on LinkedIn. So whatever opportunity that I find there, I’ll make sure to copy/paste in the group. So, that way people know that something exists for them to apply so they have some visibility.

[00:06:03] Sam Proulx: You started and there were 50, 60 people. Did you do a lot of promotion and awareness raising, or did it just sort of grow organically and by word of mouth?

[00:06:20] Meenakshi (Meena) Das: Yeah. think the latter. I guess the most promotion that I did was to just post it on like LinkedIn maybe. Mm-hmm. That was the best promotion of what I did. I think over the last two years, it is just growing organically every day. We get like about five to six more requests to join the group. It just keeps growing.

[00:06:57] Sam Proulx: Yeah, it really speaks to how much need there is. Not just for the community of professionals, but for cross collaboration and working together. It’s interesting to me that you sort of called it working with disability as opposed to focusing on one particular disability.

[00:07:22] Because if you look on Facebook for example, there’s groups just for blind people and groups just for people with autism right? And it’s so narrow and focused maybe in ways that are sometimes not great.

[00:07:35] Meenakshi (Meena) Das: Very true. Yeah,

[00:07:36] Nikki Nolan: Yeah. So what experience has shaped your perspective on disability?

[00:07:42] Meenakshi (Meena) Das: I was five years old when I got diagnosed with the stutter. And it just kept on increasing as I became older. When I was a kid, other kids made fun of me. I don’t blame them. Kids don’t really understand things. So I guess from my childhood, I just felt very isolated. I didn’t have a lot of friends, and I didn’t know anyone who stuttered. So, I did not have community support. When I went to college, I liked to slowly start to discover these things. I found people who went through the same challenges as me. I think my experiences have just made me understand that a community of support is very important. And like that’s what I’ve been trying to do through my work: to create more communities to support each other.

[00:09:12] Sam Proulx: It’s interesting that we’ve been talking a lot about community because it’s so important and I mean that isolation that I think we maybe all feel in different ways and for different reasons growing up as kids. As who have disabilities. And so how did you discover your community and find those people?

[00:09:38] You’ve been on quite a journey, right? Going to a new country and finding your footing and jobs and work and all that stuff. How did you seek out community? How did you sort of get out of that isolation and find the help and support that you needed?

[00:09:57] And was it already there or was it something that you sort of had to build for yourself?

[00:10:01] Meenakshi (Meena) Das: Yeah. I moved to the States in 2014 to start my undergraduate degree here. When I first came here, I was so surprised to see that my school had a disability accommodations office where they told me that, if you don’t want to do your speaking classes, you can substitute that, say with writing class. I guess just having that knowledge and just having that freedom to choose, that I was not forced to speak if I didn’t want to. Just having the choice was so great.

[00:10:58] The same accommodations office gave me a pamphlet for an organization called Access Computing. So that’s an organization who supports students with disabilities in computer science. So I joined a that organization, and I was part of this big mailing list of thousands of other students with disabilities who were studying computer science in that same organization. That same year, they sponsored me to go to CSUN. So when I went to the CSUN Accessibility Conference. I met so many more disabled people there and I just finally felt thatfit in somewhere.

[00:12:06] Another opportunity whicht had a big impact on me being chosen as a Google Lime Scholar in 2018. So, that’s a scholarship from Google for students with disabilities who are studying computer science. One of the benefits of the school scholarship was that all the recipients got to go to the main Google office for a small retreat. So I went there and met 10 more students who are disabled and who were studying computer science. So, actually, two of those people are now my best friends. Just finding such opportunities, and joining that mailing list was a great thing for me for sure.

[00:13:27] Nikki Nolan: Yeah, we’ll have to link to that mailing list.

[00:13:29] Meenakshi (Meena) Das: Yeah, definitely.

[00:13:30] Sam Proulx: Absolutely. And you know, it’s so interesting what you mentioned about accommodations and having the choice to have accommodations, right? That’s also so important because sometimes people say, oh, it’s really different to say to someone, you can choose not to take a speaking class if you don’t want to, as opposed to, you can’t take a speaking class.

[00:13:51] Right? And that’s so important. I mean here you are on a podcast, choosing to do that. Thanks so much for doing it. Another thing that I’m curious about, you spoke about how you weren’t familiar with the idea of accommodations and that really wasn’t a thing for you before you came to the States. I’m curious how your journey has changed the way that you think about disability?

[00:14:24] Did you find that maybe now it’s something you feel is more a part of your identity? Do you feel like you accept it more now or is it the same? How has your journey through different cultures changed the way that you think about disability?

[00:14:43] Meenakshi (Meena) Das: When I first came to the US, I had a very medical model of disability in my head. I think in my childhood, I must have gone to some 20 speech therapists to see if my speech can be cured. So my mindset was finding ways to cure my stutter, I would Google things saying, like, how do I cure my stutter?

[00:15:22] And I still remember, I saw this advertisement, where some guy claimed to cure it in just 10 days or something. And somehow managed to convince my parents to pay for that.

[00:15:42] And oh my God, like, it was like such a big scam. Thankfully, I am no longer that way. I don’t fall for such things anymore. I still do speech therapy. 10 years back for me, the goal of speech therapy was to just cure my stutter. But right now, I have more realistic goals. One of my main goals is just self acceptance. How do I be more acceptive? Acceptive is not a word. I’m sorry.

[00:16:25] How do I say this? I guess, how do I be more accepting towards my sutter because, sometimes I still have some moments where, I think to myself “why can’t I just speak fluently for just two minutes of my life?”

[00:16:47] And then another one of my goals with my speech therapist, is how can I disclose my stutter on, say, dating apps. So like, it’s just like more short term realistic goals than like trying to just cure my stutter all at once. Having such short term goals, they tend to be less frustrating, and they work more. I still do speech therapy. The way I do it, it’s a lot more fulfilling than like what I used to do before.

[00:17:37] Sam Proulx: Yeah. And it sounds like maybe, your goals have changed also to be for you instead of for other people. Sometimes it’s people with disabilities. We can feel this pressure to change. Not necessarily for ourselves because we want to, but we want to be faster for other people or we wanna be less of a burden on other people or we want this, that, and the other.

[00:17:58] It sounds like your goals now are really to be the person that you want to be as opposed to changing for someone else.

[00:18:08] Meenakshi (Meena) Das: Yep, for sure. Yeah.

[00:18:10] Nikki Nolan: Sam is so good at picking up on themes.

[00:18:13] Meenakshi (Meena) Das: I know. I did observe that. Yeah.

[00:18:17] Nikki Nolan: It’s like therapy with Sam.

[00:18:22] Sam Proulx: No, I would not be, I would not be a good therapist.

[00:18:26] AD

[00:18:26] Sam Proulx: Before we continue this conversation, it’s time to pause for just a minute for a word from our sponsor.

[00:18:31] Hello, my name is Chris Smart. I’m a full-time screen reader user, and a member of Fable’s community of accessibility testers. If you’re listening to this podcast, you already know just how important it is to integrate the voices of people with disabilities into every aspect of your product development journey.

[00:18:48] Fable can help you do that. From improving your team’s accessibility training with Fable Upskill to working directly with assistive technology users. With Fable Engage, we can help you take the next step in building amazing websites and apps that are accessible and easy to use for everyone to learn more, check out what we do at www.makeitfable.com and follow us on LinkedIn and Twitter.

[00:19:11] Nikki Nolan: And we’re back.

[00:19:12] Marker

[00:19:12] Nikki Nolan: What are some things along your path that you’ve discovered that surprised you?

[00:19:17] Meenakshi (Meena) Das: One of the things I was surprised by was that most people, they are generally kind and patient. In the past, many times I would just not talk to people, because I felt like I would be taking too much time with them because they have to be patient to listen to me, wasting their time. Then in the recent few years, I started becoming more self-confident. I started to just talk more to people. I have observed that they are patient. Most of them don’t care if you take some time to speak. I think since my childhood, I had sort of internalized the fear that I take too much of people’s time.

[00:20:26] I have observed that that’s not the case at all. My best friend just told me the other day, we have been friends for like five years now- and she told me that most of the time, when I speak to her, she doesn’t even notice that I have a stutter. So, I guess people get used to it. And then, at the same time, there are good people in this world, who are patient, and they will let you finish your sentence, you know?

[00:21:22] Sam Proulx: That must be a struggle sometimes. Right? Some people just want to move too fast at the expense of anything, and there are folks and people can get used to things really, really quickly, in a way that I don’t think we think about.

[00:21:42] I mean, I’ve had people tell me, oh, I forgot you were blind. And even though I consider it like this core part of myself. And it’s really interesting that people will just forget at times.

[00:21:53] Nikki Nolan: It’s interesting. Something is coming to my mind, it’s sort of like one thing that happens specifically with a non-visible disability. Like I have people say, oh, you don’t seem like you have a disability. I’m curious with both the statements that you both just made where someone says, oh, I don’t notice the stutter anymore or for you Sam, like, oh, I forgot that you’re blind. Does that evoke the same sort of internal reaction of… for me it’s like when people say well, you don’t seem autistic. For me, it’s not the compliment that people think it is for me. And I’m just curious, when people say that to you all, what is evoked there?

[00:22:38] Meenakshi (Meena) Das: I think the first thought that comes to my mind is that they are lying. Cause you have to notice the stutter. I know some people, they have a very mild stutter. But mine’s not a mild stutter. So you have to know and notice that.

[00:23:07] So I guess the first thought that comes to my mind is that they are just trying to make me feel better. I don’t want them to do that. It just feels weird. So like last week I went on a date and the guy told me that I spoke fluently. I was just like, how is that?

[00:23:44] Nikki Nolan: You’re so not observant, apparently.

[00:23:51] Sam Proulx: Problem going forward. Good luck getting him to notice when you change your hairstyle right now.

[00:23:56] Meenakshi (Meena) Das: So, yeah. I guess people are just trying to make me feel good. and I do appreciate that. Then at the same time, it just feels fake to me.

[00:24:15] Sam Proulx: Yeah, I hear you about that. Especially in my experience, I’ll be in a place where I need help with something and sometimes people will be so willing to help even at their own inconvenience. If people would just be upfront like that, this is inconvenient or this is bothering you.

[00:24:34] We can find a better way to do this. I’m sure if someone was really in some super hurry to get some information from you for some reason, you’d probably rather they were upfront and you could just send them a text, right? Like, yeah.

[00:24:53] So I definitely feel that. But then of course there’s the, I think sometimes for me it feels like when someone says they forgot I was blind, it’s almost like an excuse. What they really meant is, I forgot to take your needs into account. It’s just another way that they’re saying it.

[00:25:11] Nikki Nolan: Mm-hmm.

[00:25:12] Sam Proulx: It’s kind of an excuse. I don’t know, but sometimes it really is, just a thing. Sometimes people do forget about me, like if it’s just the three of us sitting, having a conversation. I mean, it’s only coming up because this is what we’re talking about, right? I could see you just sending me a picture without l text just in the moment.

[00:25:33] So I don’t know. But it also makes me think about a discussion that we’ve been having a lot on this season of the podcast as we do these interviews, which is really around needs and helping and understanding what your own needs are and helping other people understand them, right?

[00:25:51] Because it seems like one thing that happens with all invisible disabilities, where it’s like autism or a stutter or depression, there’s all the people who think that what you really need is their personal advice. How to be better and that’s not it. I just wonder how you think about your needs and disclosing and making sure that you get what you need?

[00:26:22] And is that something that you’re, you’re comfortable in? Or do you still feel like you’re on that journey of figuring out what works for you and what doesn’t and what you need and all those things?

[00:26:33] Meenakshi (Meena) Das: I think I’m a lot better at asking for what I need to be more comfortable. So, for example, at my work I have an accommodation to type instead of speaking. If we have a meeting going on, I’ll make sure if I want to say something, I make sure to put it in the chat box and then somebody will read it for me..

[00:27:09] If I just have to speak like one or two sentences, I will just like speak it. But if it’s something longer, then I will type it. On a few days, if I’m having a bad day and I can’t say the first two sentences either. So at that time, sometimes I feel embarrassed to just type small things in the chat. Because, I just feel, people may think I’m too dependent.

[00:27:55] Uh it’s just one sentence. Why can’t she just say it? So, these are like some of the thoughts that I still struggle with. My co- workers, they are really nice people. They always support me with what I need.

[00:28:15] But I think that’s more like my feelings, these thoughts. I should say, like my needs being a burden to other people. Am I, sort of, being a burden for them? I have felt the same for my friends and on my dates and stuff. Sometimes I don’t ask for what I want, cause I feel that I’ll be judged.

[00:28:47] One of my friends loves FaceTime, but I just don’t like FaceTiming and talking. Texting’s the best way to talk to me and stuff. And then at the same time, I don’t want her to think that I’m not being a good friend to her because she’s the kind of a person who likes to speak on the phone.

[00:29:18] Sometimes it gets hard, and I just don’t do what I need to do to feel more comfortable. Compared to the last few years, I’m better for sure.

[00:29:39] Sam Proulx: I know our time’s drawing to a close, but I’m super curious and interested as we talk about needs and the conversation that we’re having, this is just a question that comes out of my not having lived experience with having a stutter.

[00:29:56] I’m very curious about the experience that you have. Is it when you prefer to type or prefer to text, is it because it’s easier for you or because you think it will be easier for the other person? And no judgment there. I’m just really curious about it, because I will sometimes do this thing where I will do something one way because I think it’s easier for everyone else as opposed to it because it’s easier for me.

[00:30:28] And it’s something that I think a lot about and struggle with sometimes, like the balance between meeting everybody else’s needs and meeting your own needs.

[00:30:37] Meenakshi (Meena) Das: Yeah. It’s a combination of both for me, it’s better for me. And then at the same time I feel that it saves people’s time. It changes based on the situation too. So, at work, we do have strict timelines. We have strict meeting times. At those kinds of critical time situations, I feel that if I type, it’ll just be easier for everybody else.

[00:31:23] But if it’s a conversation between me and my friend, there’s like no time limit there or it’s like not serious business stuff going on. It’s just easier for me, because speaking can be tiring for me sometimes. So, if my friend can just chat, after a super tiring day, then yeah, chatting is the way to go.

[00:31:58] Nikki Nolan: Thank you so much for talking with us for this long.

[00:32:01] Meenakshi (Meena) Das: Oh, no, of course. Yeah.

[00:32:03] Sam Proulx: And to come out of your comfort zone to do this.

[00:32:05] Meenakshi (Meena) Das: No. Yeah, this is a safe space for me, so I’m not feeling stressed now.

[00:32:12] Sam Proulx: That’s good. And, oh dear. my screen reader just decided to crash, so I’m gonna pass it over to you, Nikki, while I start relaunching programs here for just a minute.

[00:32:23] Nikki Nolan: No problem.

[00:32:24] Sam Proulx: Speaking of needs and challenges.

[00:32:26] Meenakshi (Meena) Das: Yeah!

[00:32:26] Nikki Nolan: What are some small ways people can start towards this path of inclusion, access and furthering the rights of people with disabilities?

[00:32:33] Meenakshi (Meena) Das: Some of the small ways are to start to read about the experiences of people with disabilities, through firsthand account.

[00:32:49] There are so many books which are so easy to understand, and they tell you more about disability in general. Another great point is to follow disability advocates on social media. I have learned so much on Instagram. tikTok has such a big, vibrant, community of disabled people. Or just read more. Follow more people with disabilities.

[00:33:36] Nikki Nolan: Yeah. And as we come to a close, if people wanna follow you, if they wanna see what you’re up to, where can people find you? And is there anything you wanna promote?

[00:33:47] Meenakshi (Meena) Das: Yeah. I just paste it in the chat box real quick.

[00:33:50] Nikki Nolan: Sure

[00:33:51] Sam Proulx: Yeah, absolutely. We always include links, by the way, in the show notes. So we don’t want folks listening to the podcast as they’re driving to work, desperately trying to write things down anyway.

[00:34:02] Meenakshi (Meena) Das: Makes sense. Yeah. So this is my Instagram page. It is for disabilities in tech. I mentioned my Facebook group.

[00:34:25] Nikki Nolan: Yeah, and we’ll post that in the show notes. So the Facebook group, I’m just gonna click on it so I can get the name of it.

[00:34:32] Meenakshi (Meena) Das: Okay.

[00:34:33] Nikki Nolan: Working with Disabilities. This is so awesome and thank you so much for being here and talking with us and sharing about yourself.

[00:34:42] Meenakshi (Meena) Das: Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. I was sort of nervous. I had such a great time, it just felt so natural. So, thank you for being so inclusive. I really appreciated it a lot.

[00:35:03] Sam Proulx: Thanks for listening to Disability Bandwidth. If you liked this episode of Disability Bandwidth, please subscribe and share it with friends and family. Today’s episode was hosted by Sam Proulx and Nikki Nolan. Edited and produced by Nikki Nolan. Transcripts are written by Emma Klauber.

Music is created by Efe Akeman. Special thanks to everyone at Fable who without their support, this show would not be possible. You can find out more about Disability Bandwidth on Twitter and Instagram @disabilitybandwidth, or on our website at www.disabilitybandwidth.com.

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