On this week’s episode of Disability Bandwidth, we have a lively and engaging conversation with Ka Li, an Accessibility Analyst at National Network for Equitable Library Service. Ka’s interests span across multiple domains, ranging from conducting accessibility tests to contributing to the accessible publishing industry and even practicing Kava Maga and creating tactile graphics. We delve into his passions and what motivates him to get up each day. Make sure not to miss this week’s podcast for a fun and captivating discussion.

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Transcript

[00:00:00] (music)

[00:00:05] Nikki Nolan: Welcome to season two at Disability Bandwidth.

[00:00:12] Sam Proulx: A show where we talk with experts in disability about their journey, life, and inspiration.

[00:00:16] Nikki Nolan: I’m Nikki Nolan.

[00:00:17] Sam Proulx: And I’m Sam Proulx.

[00:00:18] Let’s get started.

[00:00:19] Nikki Nolan: Would you mind introducing yourself?

[00:00:21] Ka Li: My name is Ka Li. He/him pronouns, and I am a young Asian male with black hair and brown eyes.

[00:00:29] Nikki Nolan: Can you tell us what your role is?

[00:00:32] Ka Li: So I do a lot of different things, but a lot of my work is accessibility testing. I do some stuff for Fable. I also work in the accessible publishing field, working with publishers for their websites, eBooks, and vendors—The National Network for Equitable Library Service.

[00:00:54] And outside of work, I also do a lot of tactile graphic stuff and help with community building and that type of thing.

[00:01:02] Sam Proulx: Yeah. Which is a whole bunch of things. And, full disclosure, as someone who knows you personally, you didn’t even mention all of the things that you do, in the realms of accessibility though. I mean, accessible publishing is a super interesting field, with ebook accessibility and stuff that I haven’t had much exposure to.

[00:01:23] And so I’m wondering, what’s the state of things now in accessible publishing? Are we kind of the same, at the same place where the web is? Where some people do it and some people don’t. And do we finally have all of the standards sorted? What’s the general overview like now, in accessible publishing?

[00:01:45] Ka Li: I think there’s a convergence of technologies that’s coming together. There’s been somewhat of a separation with accessible alternative formats that’s solely separate from what you might get, with mainstream platforms. And there’s some challenges there that I’m happy to go into a bit more if you’re interested, but, there’s always been kind of this separation and now with web technologies and the increased popularity of epub. We are now seeing more publishers take an interest in how to make their books accessible right from the get-go, what they call born accessible epubs.

[00:02:17] So that means offering really great navigational features for assistive technologies, image descriptions, all those features that are really helpful for low vision. Readers who have print disabilities.

[00:02:40] So there’s a lot of stuff that goes into that. And now, with discussion of the EBRF format that APH and a lot of partners are working on, they’re looking at providing a new braille format that also leverages web technologies. So again, it’s a convergence of technologies right now that’s happening and more awareness of accessibility overall in the mainstream publishing industry.

[00:03:07] Nikki Nolan: You just used a bunch of words that I don’t know. Could you tell me what some of those acronyms mean?

[00:03:12] Ka Li: Absolutely. So, the EBRF format is something that the American Printing House for the Blind and a lot of other partners within the publishing industry and alternate format producers are working on. So, based on what’s called the Braille Ready format, BRF. That has been used for a very, very long time as an accessible braille format that people can put on their braille devices.

[00:03:43] So braille displays that type of stuff. And, so with EBRF, it’s kind of the next level of that format that offers those markup support for increased navigation.

[00:03:59] Sam Proulx: It is really interesting that there seems to be a desire to stick with BRF, the braille ready format. For folks who don’t know, BRF is still kind of based on 128 character ASCII. And the various braille characters sort of, if you open a BRF file and like notepad or text at it or something that doesn’t support the format, it’ll just show up as mostly like text with strange symbols to represent some of the Braille characters.

[00:04:25] I’m wondering because the other thing that’s happened and that I’m like vaguely familiar with is that Unicode, which is, you know, the modern kind of way that we represent characters in a file today in order to represent, you know, more than just the 26 letters of the alphabet that English speakers use.

[00:04:46] Unicode did introduce a full suite of Braille characters. So along with all of the other alphabets that exist, braille was just sort of added in there. It’s interesting that we’re still sticking with the AKI based BRF format as opposed to adopting a Unicode thing. That’s probably way too technical.

[00:05:08] Nikki Nolan: No, it’s good.

[00:05:10] Sam Proulx: Is there a discussion of like, why, Kai, have you heard discussion of why we’re sticking with BRF and not just going to Unicode?

[00:05:17] Ka Li: Yeah. So I know for the EBRF meetings that we have, because NNELS is one of the partners, there’s definitely been interest in shifting to Unicode. But I think part of it is just making sure that devices that have support for BRF are still able to do so because of how expensive braille displays and note-takers are.

[00:05:42] We wanna provide back risk compatibility as best as possible.

[00:05:46] Sam Proulx: Yeah. NNNELS, by the way, being N-N-E-L-S, the National Network for Equitable Library Service, which is one of the couple of assistive libraries that exist in Canada because of politics and some other things that we don’t need to get into. But we currently have two of them, for various reasons. Although, that said, it’s super interesting to me that you mentioned the kind of born accessible epubs and the move towards making eBooks and information accessible by default.

[00:06:16] Because it seems like for a long time we were stuck in that separate but equal, like webpages used to be, right? You had the text-only webpage that missed half the features never got updated, and then you had the real webpage and, and we seem to be that way in eBooks. But the reason that discussion is different is because of the way that accessibility was done in eBooks. As people who cannot read print due to a visual or physical or whatever kind of impairment. It’s super interesting because if eBooks become born accessible and they’re directly accessible for purchase by the publishers, is there a day when the free libraries for us go away and is that a good thing?

[00:07:01] Ka Li: So we’re definitely not that far along to where that’s in sight just yet. Fortunately or unfortunately. But I do really think it’s a good thing because it means access to print materials, and electronic materials at the same time, at the same price. I think there will always need to be an accessible library for readers with print disabilities because there’s still tons and tons of material that isn’t accessible.

[00:07:32] Right now, even though publishers are really interested and have the desire to make their eBooks accessible, there are things that they can’t cover on their own without support from accessible libraries and alternative publishing organizations such as tactile graphics and hard copy braille and various formats that haven’t even been conceived yet.

[00:07:56] So, I think there will always need to be certain structures to help support publishers. They can’t do it on their own unfortunately.

[00:08:06] Sam Proulx: And I mean, there’s also something to be said for the fact that accessible libraries also do something to equalize the economic disadvantage that some people with disabilities find themselves in, not all people with disabilities, but like, I mean, without accessible libraries through university, I wouldn’t be where I am today.

[00:08:27] I mean that’s maybe, I suppose you could argue that’s just an argument for the library system overall.

[00:08:34] Nikki Nolan: Yeah, and I used it too, as someone who’s dyslexic growing up. It was called Reading for the Blind and Dyslexic, and now it’s called Learning Ally, I think. But when I saw Ally the first time, I thought it said Allie, and I’m like, what’s the learning ally?

[00:08:50] Sam Proulx: I actually did the same thing. I was like, what is this? Is this some like back alley where we have to exchange illegal money for learning, like buying drugs or something. I mean, for a while it felt like that in the days of battle, days of ebook piracy. But we won’t get into that.

[00:09:06] Nikki Nolan: Did you all have the four-sided tape?

[00:09:09] Ka Li: Yeah.

[00:09:10] Nikki Nolan: With like a big old reader. I remember I had this big reader and it would come in these big, thick things and it would be like a four-sided tape that you would just change the speed and you would get four. Oh, it’s so fun. Sorry, I just got super nostalgic.

[00:09:25] Sam Proulx: I started off with a big reader with a handle on the front. And then I got a Sony Walkman that had had third-party modifications to be a four-track.

[00:09:35] Nikki Nolan: Ooh. My mom actually just found it. My mom just found it in her garage and I’m like, we need to return that.

[00:09:42] Sam Proulx: Yeah, right. 20 years later or something. I don’t know if there are library fees associated, but, that said, that was a fun tangent into the library world. But we should probably get back onto the list of questions. So, Nikki, I’ll let you bring us back on track as you are so good at doing.

[00:09:59] Nikki Nolan: So I’m super curious; what were some of the key moments that led you to where you are now?

[00:10:04] Ka Li: I think growing up, I didn’t have a lot of exposure to the blindness community beyond the little group of people I found online. Because even though I was part of a big school board that had pretty decent services, I didn’t always have the opportunity to meet other kids my age or older and get mentorship that way.

[00:10:29] And so, really, my part of my community was online for a very long time. And then, as I grew older, I was able to travel and meet them. They really were my first family in terms of supporting me, understanding where my disability fits in, and that type of stuff. And I gained several mentors from that and was able to really spend time with them, learn from them, learn the skills that they have. See what I was or wasn’t doing.

[00:11:01] And I really pushed myself to be my own advocate, access the services that I need and really work on my own skills. Because even though I thought I was doing pretty well, it wasn’t until I met some of my friends in the US who are fantastic travelers and do all sorts of things that I was really inspired to do that.

[00:11:25] And because I think of the mentorship and the skills and the confidence that they had in me. That’s really shaped my own understanding of disability and it’s still a work in progress and I think it will always be a work in progress where I just grow and evolve as I meet more people.

[00:11:45] But a lot of the opportunities have really come from wonderful, wonderful connections.

[00:11:50] Sam Proulx: Yeah. I think that’s maybe a commonality of the disability experience in that so many of our opportunities come from knowing the right people. Right? I don’t know if you’ve done too much of the standard, like job interviews, recruiting personnel process, but it still seems to not work for us.

[00:12:09] I don’t know. Have you done too much of that?

[00:12:12] Ka Li: A little bit. I think I’ve pretty much lucked out with some of the opportunities that I’ve helped make some of those interview processes go a lot easier. But yeah, knowing the right people, making good connections, definitely has brought a lot of interesting, fun experiences.

[00:12:31] And, there was a whole contingent of US people that came to Toronto. I met up with myself and a couple of local people and we put on a retreat/workshop to look at tactile graphics, how to make accessible art, and how to draw independently and non-visually as blind people.

[00:12:54] And it was a week of lots of fun and learning and sharing—great, great connections. And I think this opportunity would not have happened if I wasn’t in Colorado at the right time. Because I was there for their state convention, the NFB State Convention and I met up with Chancey Fleet, Ann Cunningham and it was something that we basically organized so that was a lot of fun.

[00:13:22] Sam Proulx: And some of these things are like things you do with your friends, right? Like you’re friends first.

[00:13:28] Ka Li: Absolutely. Yeah.

[00:13:29] Sam Proulx: Yeah. Yeah. It’s funny that we maybe don’t put enough emphasis on those things. That, and I think what’s also really interesting is the number of things that you do that people assume either blind people don’t do or don’t want to do. Drawing independently, right? Like, like nobody even thinks of that as a thing that should be accessible. And I’m mostly, I’m also looking for an excuse, to mention as sort of known you personally. I know you did Krav Maga for quite some time.

[00:13:58] Ka Li: Oh, absolutely.

[00:13:59] Sam Proulx: Are you still doing it and how’s that going?

[00:14:01] Ka Li: I’ve been doing it for over five years now and it’s going great. I took a little bit of a break because of the pandemic, but I’m back at it again. And we’re training in the park for the most part, even in cold weather. So that’s been a very different experience, but a lot of fun. I am very happy with that.

[00:14:25] Sam Proulx: How was the advocacy for that work? Was that something that you got involved with through the disability community in the same way as drawing our tactile graphics?

[00:14:32] Or did you just show up and be like, I wanna do this, and they were like, no, you can’t do this. Go away. Like how, how did that happen?

[00:14:38] Ka Li: Yeah, so it’s a little bit of a different journey. For me it was something that I always wanted to do in terms of finding a good self-defense system. And growing up I’ve been very athletic. I’ve tried rock climbing, skiing, downhill skiing, tried out for ski racing, competed rock climbing, and.

[00:14:58] Did a lot of track and field and cross country running. So, I was already kind of into that whole sports thing. But in terms of martial arts, nothing else really grabbed my attention except for self-defense. I wanted something practical. So that’s how I stumbled upon krav maga. After doing tons and tons of research online, I just reached out to a couple different places.

[00:15:21] Some places were interested and some weren’t. And I finally landed on a place that was excellent. The instructor wasn’t sure at first how well it was gonna go, but after one lesson, UHT felt very, very comfortable. And since then, we’ve just headed off and I’ve been training with him for over five years.

[00:15:46] Sam Proulx: I don’t know how krav maga works, but I know some martial arts, there’s like levels and advancements and you get different belts and you become sort of different things. Have you found that there’s like a limit, like I can go this far and no further?

[00:15:58] Or are you still just sort of progressing along the way?

[00:16:00] Ka Li: Still progressing, still really figuring things out. There’s not a lot of blind people who do krav maga, because in certain techniques there’s distance and no contact. Where, you know, compared to something like judo or wrestling, there’s a lot of contact, right? But in krav maga, some techniques are done at a distance or you start to do these techniques at a distance before contact.

[00:16:26] So figuring out alternative techniques using my sense of hearing, that has been really interesting. Sound profiling, figuring out what’s happening. That is kind of fun. So, it’s really just figuring out a lot of new techniques and we haven’t found the limit yet. I’ve tested for several levels, and will hopefully be testing again pretty soon next year.

[00:16:54] And my goal is to become a krav maga instructor and take their intensive civilian instructors course. Which I know will be emotionally, physically, mentally, very, very challenging. and that’s pretty much my plan. And so far my instructors have been very, very, supportive of that. I’ve also been very lucky to train with high level instructors like John Paul and Tamir Gillad and a lot of other people that are very big names in the self-defense and military industries, throughout the world.

[00:17:29] And, you know, sometimes, actually a lot of times it was about showing them what I could do and raising their expectations of what they think blind people can do. So that’s definitely been one of the biggest challenges. But, I think there’s definitely progress.

[00:17:47] Sam Proulx: Yeah. And it’s interesting when you’re building a trail that other people haven’t run before. Are you finding that you’re building a community and inspiring other folks and other blind people are getting into this thing? Or is it just sort of a thing that you do and you’re not really building that community?

[00:18:05] Ka Li: I would definitely love to see more blind people get into this. A couple of months ago, actually at the end of October in Colorado. Besides doing the tactile graphics stuff that they wanted me to do there, I taught two krav maga classes and they both went very well. Everyone was enthused about it and found it to be challenging, but exciting.

[00:18:28] You know, because I wasn’t putting any limits on anyone, I was showing all the different techniques in a very accessible way. I think when you have opportunities like that, it’s really important to share and expand because there’s definitely challenges trying to participate in mainstream classes. Some people might worry about how they’re gonna access all the information, all the techniques, whether things are gonna go too quickly for them.

[00:18:59] And I’ve come up with some techniques and strategies to make that work for me but it can still be a very daunting process. And I’m certainly interested in expanding the community in that way.

[00:19:14] AD

[00:19:14] Sam Proulx: Let’s take a minute and pause for a word from our sponsor and my employer.

[00:19:19] Maria: Hello, my name is Maria R. Mucaria. I’m a full-time screen magnification user. I’m a member of Fable’s Community of Accessibility testers. If you’re listening to this podcast, you already know just how important it is to integrate the voices of people with disabilities into every aspect of your product development journey.

[00:19:41] Fable can help you do that from improving your team’s accessibility training with Fable Upskill to working directly with assistive technology users. With Fable Engage, we can help you take the next step in building amazing websites and apps that are accessible and easy to use for. To learn more, check out what we do at www.makeitfable.com and follow us on LinkedIn and Twitter.

[00:20:12] Sam Proulx: And we’re back.

[00:20:12] Before I hand it over to Nikki. I think the best way to bring us back on track is to ask you about all of the things that you do, from accessible publishing to accessible art to mixed martial arts. What’s the thing that lights the fire? What keeps you going? What gets you out of bed in the morning?

[00:20:33] Ka Li: I think for me, trying to push limits because there are a lot of preconceived limits. Both we as people with disabilities and the sighted people or people without disabilities, put on us. And being able to try new things that other people haven’t done before is interesting to me because I’m really fascinated about how we can push beyond those limits and really expand opportunities in ways that people haven’t seen before. So that’s kind of where my passion is.

[00:21:09] Sam Proulx: Yeah, Nikki, I could talk to Kai all day about literally anything and we have done this, you know, post Fable meetings being up till three in the morning and like somebody will come back in and just still us having our conversation.

[00:21:22] So I should let you get a word in edgewise here.

[00:21:25] Nikki Nolan: No, no, I’m really curious, what outcomes you’ve experienced while you’ve started exploring and talking and taking up spaces where it’s been. You’ve had to overcome people’s preconceived notions of disabilities. What are some of the outcomes that you’ve experienced going through this?

[00:21:41] Ka Li: I found that by showing people how I do things, explaining it to them, showing the alternative techniques that I use has really been very, very helpful, and impactful. Rather than trying for them to do a disability simulation where they throw on a blindfold for 10, 15 minutes and try to do something without any guidance.

[00:22:02] So for me, when I work with people without disabilities, I tend to be very descriptive about what I’m doing, how I do something, and really demystifying all the things that we do. So that they don’t think, you know, we’re the most amazing person ever for opening a car door and sitting in a car, you know?

[00:22:25] That they understand we’re human beings, who do things differently and we live full lives and these are some of the ways that we do it. And really normalizing disability that way.

[00:22:38] Sam Proulx: And it sounds like that works for you because you’re so proactive in knowing what you need and figuring out how to get it right, how to adapt things, how to come up with alternative techniques. And so you, at least from the outside, it seems like you really put a lot of that onus on yourself to figure out your own needs and how to meet them.

[00:23:00] I’m wondering, I think there are a lot of people, not just in the blindness community, but in the disability community in general who don’t necessarily have that skill. Who may not always be clear how to even begin adapting things that they’ve never done before to meet their needs or how to figure out what their needs exactly are gonna be in a new situation.

[00:23:23] Is that a thing that you had to intentionally learn and if so, how did you build that skill in, in yourself, because that seems pretty central to what you do.

[00:23:36] Ka Li: So I think it’s interesting that you look at it as a skill and perhaps there are skills, or even a single skill acts kind of as the essential vocal point for me. The way I look at this is a system, developing a system that works for you. So whether they’re daily living skills or tech skills, or real literacy skills, there’s all sorts of skills to learn.

[00:24:05] And sometimes taking some of these skills, and putting them in new situations requires a little bit of out of the box thinking, which I think people with disabilities are very much willing to do because sometimes we have no choice but to do that. And I think leaning into that really helps.

[00:24:27] So for example, I’ve done labs with dissections and the cooking skills that you use in order to explore and find things and figuring out where to look at your dissections and how to find all the information you need. These come from cooking skills and also from braille literacy skills, learning to explore in a very systematic way.

[00:24:56] Or learning how to solder. You know, we think of that as a very visual skill or set of skills, but when you adapt it, you pull in a lot of spatial reasoning as well as orientation and mobility skills. So independent travel skills that you use because you adapt it by taking the soldering iron and using that as a cane, and using different landmarks on your board to orient yourself.

[00:25:25] So it’s really having a solid foundation, a fundamental set of skills that you can then take and then turn to your own purposes. So that’s kind of where I come from

[00:25:39] Sam Proulx: It sounds like it’s more about learning how to learn and then generalize. We probably should throw in what you’re studying in university, just so we’re not randomly, you know, throwing out the listeners oh, I cook and I dissect things, you know, for fun like you do.

[00:25:55] So let me talk a little bit about why you’re up to dissecting things.

[00:26:00] Ka Li: Yeah, so, I’ve been studying kinesiology at York University. I’m just about to graduate next year. Very exciting. And of course through that degree, I’ve had to do dissection labs and physiology labs, biomechanics labs and that type of stuff. And it’s very much a new territory for me.

[00:26:24] Just going back quickly to sometimes not knowing how to adapt something, I definitely felt that a lot in certain situations. And one of the things that I’ve learned to do is make it a team effort, make it a collaborative effort. You know, I won’t always have all the answers, but when you collaborate, other people, whether they are professors or fellow students, then we all win because we come up with a solution that works.

[00:26:51] And sometimes you don’t really have a solution until you just go and try it, because sometimes we do a lot of planning, and trying to anticipate things. Sometimes the best way to figure things out is to go and try it, and I’ve definitely had to kind of jump in feet first and hope you know that everything works out well.

[00:27:13] Sam Proulx: Are most people willing to do that collaboration or do you find that it can be a struggle to actually get people on board and like willing to do this, wanting to do this? And if so, how do you get them to come on side?

[00:27:29] Ka Li: Yeah, it’s a mixed bag. I think some people are more willing to do it than others. I think some people have this idea that adapting STEM materials is very difficult. And teaching concepts that seem very visual is very daunting. But once you show them the different ways that you conceptualize things, whether that’s in a tactile way or whether that’s more of a verbal or written way, you know, they start to adapt things with you and go on that journey with you.

[00:28:01] So, I think there’s a little bit of initial hesitation, and bias. But if you’re able to overcome that, then I think you’ll get buy-in from people because they learn how to do different things or do things differently, and they see the impact that that has, that’s really rewarding for them too.

[00:28:26] Sam Proulx: It’s interesting, I mean, it harkens back to something I said on another episode of this podcast, which is different. It’s different. Not difficult, right? Doing something in a different way doesn’t necessarily mean doing it in a harder way. But, people have that connection, like branded into their minds that if I have to do something different, well it’s obviously gonna be harder.

[00:28:47] This is a conversation that came up in some of our conversations around autism. But it also makes me super curious that you’re so into it. You know, pushing boundaries and expanding boundaries and finding the limits, and figuring these things out in ways that maybe many people with disabilities haven’t come along on the journey or aren’t there yet.

[00:29:09] In martial arts, in dissections, in soldering, perhaps all of these things. So who’s the community now? Like you sort of mentored in the disability community, but is it still the place or have you found that you left the disability community behind in a lot of ways?

[00:29:32] Or where do you find your community now?

[00:29:35] Ka Li: Yeah, so a big part is still the disability community, and really learning about other blind people, who have done some of these things or are willing to learn some of these things, figure it out, and then teach it to other people. That workshop retreat thing that happened last week, it was a very informal gathering where a lot of us just came together, and learned about some of these concepts and different methodologies of teaching, and discussed that with each other.

[00:30:07] So when we work in our respective areas in this tactile graphics space, we have some tools to be able to explain certain concepts in a way that’s very accessible. For example, talking about convergence, where say when you draw something, you wanna show perhaps a convergence, because that’s how something might be represented.

[00:30:33] How do we explain something like that that seems so visual in an accessible way? And so one of the things that we learned together was having two people stand at one end of a hallway tapping their canes on the wall. And then two other people standing at the end of the hallway, tapping their canes against the wall.

[00:30:55] And then when someone stands at one end of the hallway that’s even further up or down, depending on your perspective, they’re able to hear the two people who tap their canes, that’s closest to them on the left and the right. But when the people at the other end of the hallway tap their canes, it sounds like it’s coming from the center.

[00:31:17] It shows that those two points have merged, which illustrates kind of that illusion of the two roads running parallel. And then when you zoom out at a distance, it looks like it’s converged to a single point. And so, you know, figuring things out and explaining how to get from point A to point B.

[00:31:40] How do you convert a 3D object into 2D drawings? Some people understand the concepts but don’t necessarily know how to explain it in a logical way. You know, that was me. And then some people, they may not have been exposed to some of these concepts before and had to work through that.

[00:31:59] And things like that it’s all community based where we all get together, find like-minded people, and really learn from each other. So I think that’s too, one of the wonderful things about the blind community overall.

[00:32:16] Sam Proulx: Grassroots rather than top down community organizing in a way.

[00:32:20] And I mean, of course there,I’m guessing in 3D graphics there are a lot of techniques that work for people who once had vision and lost it. That doesn’t work for people who are born blind and like figuring out the difference that maybe we don’t take into account enough.

[00:32:35] Ka Li: Yeah. Figuring out that difference, but also figuring out how to teach a lot of these concepts so that it doesn’t feel so unintuitive. Teaching it in a very logical way, as opposed to, this is what it’s supposed to be, and then you should be able to figure out why that’s the case.

[00:32:55] And keeping in mind that for a lot of us, including myself, who’ve been born blind, we’ve never really been exposed to a lot of images in our lives compared to someone who’s gone blind later. And so, we really have to start from the beginning to teach some of this stuff since a lot of these ideas, a lot of teachers in the blindness field, don’t spend time working on because they don’t think it’s important,

[00:33:22] Sam Proulx: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. It sounds like you’re thinking about adding photography as one of your many hobbies.

[00:33:28] Ka Li: I’m definitely down to try that.

[00:33:30] Nikki Nolan: I actually taught photography to people who were blind after undergraduate and I think Sam, you and I have talked about this, but not online, like not on the podcast, but I found the images to be so much more unique and interesting because the visual bias wasn’t there and like gave me such another perspective on like composition and all of these things.

[00:33:55] You told me that they now have technology in cameras to be like face and center or like help you orient and I don’t know, for me I’m just like, does it take away from like the uniqueness that can be created by someone who might not be able to see? I don’t know. I’m very curious about it.

[00:34:14] But you should pick up photography. I think it’d be really cool.

[00:34:18] Ka Li: Yeah, I’m definitely down to try it.

[00:34:20] Nikki Nolan: So I’m really curious, along your journey has there been anything you’ve discovered that’s really surprised you?

[00:34:26] Ka Li: For me, what surprised me is, how much change there has been throughout just my own understanding of disability because I had a lot of biases, and expectations put on myself. There were also ones that were put on me by non-disabled people. Really learning to change the way you think and break out of those negative defeating thoughts, was a really tough thing.

[00:34:56] And I think part of what I had to do was really spend a lot of time with my blind friends and observe what they did. Have friends and mentors question why I thought that way in order to understand where my biases and where the barriers I put up were. And that’s been a bit of a tough journey, but it’s also been very helpful in expanding my own understanding.

[00:35:34] Once I kind of started working on that, there was a time where I was a little bit more brash and maybe pushy about some of the things that I had learned. And then, now that I’m a little bit more mature, it’s grown into meeting people where they’re at in their journey and supporting them.

[00:35:56] And some people are further along than others. There’s still a lot of room for me to grow. I think it’s something that will always be a work in progress, something that kind of keeps me grounded, so to speak and how I approach disabilities and stuff like that.

[00:36:18] Sam Proulx: Has that changed in the way you think about blindness, in your own disability, changed the way you think about your identity? I know there’s a movement with a lot of very vocal voices, Jonathan Moss and others in the kind of camp that we should be proud of our blindness and adopt it as a point of pride in our identity in the same way that some people are proud of their ethnicity.

[00:36:44] Has your thinking on blindness led you in that direction or how do you think of blindness and disability kind of in relation to yourself?

[00:36:57] Ka Li: Yeah, absolutely. I think I’ve certainly kind of joined that thinking. When I started learning about all the things that blind people were succeeding at, and then really taking pride and knowing that despite how the world isn’t built for us, we’re still able to do things, not adequately, not decently, that really fills me with a sense of pride.

[00:37:24] And so I personally also prefer identity first, rather than person first.

[00:37:30] Nikki Nolan: Hmm. Yeah. One thing that I just wanna ask, cause we’re getting close to the end. Can you explain what tactile graphics are, just in case people don’t know what that is? You all used it a lot in this conversation. And I wanna make sure we keep people along for the ride if they don’t understand some kind of concept.

[00:37:48] Ka Li: Absolutely. So tactile graphics are generally raised line drawings. Not just outlines of things, but sometimes you have different textures that are used, and that’s used for shading to identify different parts of an image. By doing things this way, someone who’s not able to see is able to access the same spatial relationships among objects and the shapes of objects, in an equitable way.

[00:38:18] Because as much as I love alt text and have been doing a lot of work there with publishers, you can only really provide spatial language in descriptions up to a certain extent. It’s more generalized. But with tactile graphics, you know exactly how something is at an angle to another. Which is really important for understanding abstract meaning behind art or looking at more schematic diagrams of things.

[00:38:48] One of the things that I’ve been working on is making accessible Lego instructions, both using text language, text instructions and also looking at adding tactile graphics to some builds. And so through that, that’s definitely been a really interesting journey in figuring out what the limits are of how we convey things, through language as opposed to conveying them in diagrams that are a lot in an isometric view.

[00:39:11] I would say a lot of people who are blind have struggled with thinking about that 3D representation of a cube in the textbooks that you see.

[00:39:34] I think for me personally, I struggled with that. And so then it comes back to learning some of these concepts and all that type of stuff. There’s definitely a lot there.

[00:39:48] Sam Proulx: I still can’t make heads or tails of any of those representations. It’s probably a training thing. I’ve never done it, it’s never been part of my life. And so, maybe I’ll ask a super controversial question then.

[00:40:01] Ka Li: Go for it.

[00:40:02] Sam Proulx: With the revolution in 3D printing and things like data sonification, which is, you know, representing a graph say with audio tones or things like the folks over at Seen with Sound are doing, where they’re representing images based on sound are, are the days of raised line drawings on thick paper at an end?

[00:40:24] Or do you think that there’s like a future in the kind of raised line drawings? Or should we just be replacing them with things like 3D prints and data sonification?

[00:40:37] Ka Li: Yeah, so, that’s an interesting question. I think there will always be a future for 2D or 2.5D. Some people might call it because of the raised lines, those types of drawings, 3D printing. I also play with 3D printing. I’ve been looking at non-visual ways of making that more accessible, figuring out workflows and that type of stuff.

[00:40:58] It’s a great way to provide access to images with a lot of depth, but with the technology right now, it’s quite slow. For the FDM printers that are commonly found in homes and libraries and that type of stuff. And not to mention, there’s still the importance of learning how to interpret a diagram and when we use 3D printing.

[00:41:23] We would still be doing more of a 2D abstraction of something. And so learning the skills, learning how to read 2D diagrams, is still gonna be really important. And one of the more efficient ways of doing that is still producing drawings, either through an embosser or through what they call swell touch, which is basically microcap paper that when drawn on or printed an image on it, and put through a heating element, those microcaps break.

[00:41:53] The chemical within the paper and the chemical within the ink that’s printed causes a reaction and produces that puffy raised line texture. I think there’s lots of different methods and I don’t think one approach is gonna go obsolete anytime.

[00:42:15] Nikki Nolan: Well, we’re getting kind of close to the end, so what are some small ways people can start on this path of inclusion and access and furthering the rights of people with disabilities?

[00:42:25] Ka Li: One of the important lessons I’ve learned from my own journey, figuring out where my disability fits in, has been to understand that we’re not necessarily victims of all these different forces that are put on us in this world. Whether these are low expectations or something else.

[00:42:46] There’s an element of empowerment. I think that really has changed my outlook on things where there are situations that are out of my control. Even within that, there are still things I can do to empower myself and really push access in the right direction.

[00:43:11] So, for example, we’ve all encountered stoves with push buttons. Touch capacitive buttons are a new thing right now or have been for a while. And while some of these have become really complex and offer a lot of functionality, they’ve locked out access. I guess this really goes for any appliance, but, I think for me, even though sometimes it’s easy to feel helpless when you feel like you’re locked out of something.

[00:43:47] I think just reminding yourself that there’s things you can do. You can email the maker, the manufacturer and advocate for access. You know, that’s something you can own and take charge of now. Will they listen to you or change things? Hopefully. But even if not, I think, just taking that step to doing something that you can do on your end really is kind of a freeing and empowering thing.

[00:44:15] Nikki Nolan: Sam, do you have any follow-up questions?

[00:44:17] Sam Proulx: Yeah.

[00:44:17] Is there anything that you wanted to talk about that we didn’t ask you about or anything cool and neat that you thought, oh gee, hope I get a chance to bring that up. And then we didn’t ask.

[00:44:26] Ka Li: Well, I know we’ve touched on a lot of different projects. But Lego and tactile graphics and all that type of stuff has really been my passion and interest, especially for the last couple years working on some of these and hopefully, some of these instructions will be appearing very soon.

[00:44:44] So I’m super excited because everyone is able to go and download them, buy their own Lego kit and build them. Put these things together and it’s just the most amazing experience when I’ve led several groups in putting together even just a small build. Because everyone had access to Lego growing up, putting things together on their own, doing free building, but a lot of blind people have never had access to building kits.

[00:45:13] And so it’s an incredibly profound experience to feel like you’re a part of that now and have the opportunity to connect more with the Lego community, which is still incredibly popular and huge, both with kids and adults.

[00:45:29] Sam Proulx: Yeah, I mean, I’m excited about those. Keep me posted. I want to build some, spend some money, and buy some Lego; not cheap, but absolutely worth it.

[00:45:36] Nikki Nolan: I think that leads us into the closing question, which is, if people wanna keep up with all of the cool things that you are doing because it seems like you’re doing all of the cool things all at once.

[00:45:46] Sam Proulx: Where’s the best place to find you and keep up with what you’re up to? And is there anything you wanna promote?

[00:45:52] Ka Li: Yeah, so you can always contact me on Twitter @knowledgeableka. Macedon just started having an account there and looking at things. It’s knowledgeableka@msstdn.party.

[00:46:16] Sam Proulx: Oh, the party. Okay.

[00:46:18] Ka Li: Yeah. It’s a weird one. And then of course, you can always send me an email at kayatli@gmail.com.Basically bug me about anything. I love talking to people.

[00:46:33] Sam Proulx: Yeah. Well, I mean I personally have gotta do that because we’ve gotta catch up. It’s been way too long. I was in Toronto in October, and I wanted to get together, but I had literally an event every evening.

[00:46:46] Ka Li: I bet. Yeah. I mean, I think I still need to catch up on my sleep from the event last week.

[00:46:54] Sam Proulx: Yeah. Events are always fun, but you’re also always glad when they’re over, right?

[00:46:58] Ka Li: Oh yeah, I mean this was very informal. It was like 10 people or so, but you know, I was with them for most of the week. They rented an Airbnb and I just commuted to their place. Usually, you know, I had to wake up early just to make it on time.

[00:47:16] Nikki Nolan: Yeah. Yeah, I hear you. Sounds like the best kind of event, though. Everyone is just hanging out in Airbnb doing research and drinking. Thank you so much, Ka. It was so lovely meeting you and getting to talk to you, and learning more about you.

[00:47:28] Ka Li: Thanks, it’s been a lot of fun. A little bit scattered, unfortunately with where my thoughts are, but hopefully, you have something that’s a little bit more coherent.

[00:47:37] Sam Proulx: Absolutely. It’s the nature of podcasting. Thanks for taking the time and for catching up. We gotta do more podcasts just so that we catch up.

[00:47:45] Ka Li: I am totally cool with that.

[00:47:53] Sam Proulx: Thanks for listening to Disability Bandwidth. If you liked this episode of Disability Bandwidth, please subscribe and share it with friends and family. Today’s episode was hosted by Sam Proulx and Nikki Nolan. Edited and produced by Nikki Nolan. Transcripts are written by Emma Klauber.

Music is created by Efe Akeman. Special thanks to everyone at Fable who, without their support, this show would not be possible. You can find out more about Disability Bandwidth on Twitter and Instagram @disabilitybandwidth, or on our website at www.disabilitybandwidth.com.

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