Stephen Anfield chats with hosts Nikki and Sam about his transition off social media and into a new career. Stephen is currently shifting into social work, using his 10+ years in tech to create innovative solutions that solve societal problems.
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Transcript:
[00:00:05] Sam Proulx: Welcome to season one of Disability Bandwidth.
[00:00:12] Nikki Nolan: A show where we talk with disability leaders each week about career, life and technology.
[00:00:17] I’m Nikki Nolan.
[00:00:18] Sam Proulx: And I’m Sam Proulx.
[00:00:19] Let’s get started.
[00:00:20] Nikki Nolan: So to start, let’s have you introduce yourself.
[00:00:23] Stephen Anfield: My name is Steven Anfield. My pronouns are he/him. My title is kind of confusing. I’m changing careers at the moment, so I was in social and digital for over a decade. And now I’m going to grad school for social work. So the title is a little bit different.
[00:00:37] I’m a black male with a shaved head and glasses.
[00:00:44] My background is a chair and a bar, not a drinking bar, it’s plants. And I’m wearing a hoodie, headphones, and glasses.
[00:00:54] Nikki Nolan: To get started, we would love to know a little bit about what your story is. What got you into your line of work or in your shift it seems like?
[00:01:02] Stephen Anfield: Right. So I’ll start with social and digital because it happened accidentally. I wanted to volunteer for older people because my grandmother at the time had passed away and I saw how things had happened with her and I was kind of angry and wanted to do something to fix things. And so I volunteered with AARP and ended up working there for a bit and then met a client in New York who wanted me to help with their social.
[00:01:28] And then I kind of just fell into it and then kept getting client after client after that. So that’s why I started with social media. I moved to DC after college at the University of Tennessee and served with City Year, which is an AmeriCorps program. And so going back into human services, that’s kind of a skip.
[00:01:50] The 10 years of social media and digital have been great, but I’m ready to go back into human services. This is why I’m going back into social work. And so part of that is because City Year has been like the kind of transformational thing that happened in my life, where I was serving in the DC community as a corps member around kids and around teachers and in classrooms.
[00:02:14] Stephen Anfield: And that’s where I am now. So I’m going back to school for that at the age of 41. So it’s kind of cool.
[00:02:20] Sam Proulx: Hey, you’re never too old.
[00:02:21] Stephen Anfield: Right? Exactly.
[00:02:25] Sam Proulx: So, I mean, that’s really interesting. You’re sort of doing this during the time of COVID. Did that have any influence on the way you think about accessibility and inclusion and digital and all that stuff?
[00:02:38] Stephen Anfield: Yes. So a few months ago I was just kind of in a place where I was like, you know what? I see a lot of things online where they’re not accessible at all. I was reading about websites and what needs to be done with websites to make them more accessible. And so originally I had a website that I tried to code using a static site generator and worked with the developer because that’s not my background.
[00:03:02] So I did that, learned about using alt text for images and how to communicate through social media and something that I saw was how it’s not used frequently. And so something that I’ve tried to do is be an example. I use it quite a bit. It’s been my job and it’s been something that I try to bring to clients as well.
[00:03:22] I think one thing as I go into social work that is something I want to be able to impact, for communities that may not be. Be able to see or hear, as part of my work. So yeah, definitely just seeing that more people are online and seeing where people don’t have the access to get the information they need for, let’s say vaccines or a number of other things.
[00:03:45] Stephen Anfield: And it’s really, it needs to change. And we keep talking about it, but it feels like nothing is being done. and so I figure, hey, why not learn about it and make a few mistakes along the way and see what I can do to be part of the change.
[00:04:01] Sam Proulx: Absolutely. It’s a learning process, so how do you go about strengthening communities through direct service, connection, and collaboration?
[00:04:10] Stephen Anfield: So City Year kind of taught me that. One of the things that we learned as Corps members is that we learn how to community map. And what that means is determining where resources are in the community, so that you can connect those resources to the people that need them. And I don’t think I really, at the time, I think I was 24.
[00:04:28] I don’t think I really understood the impact of what I was doing at the moment. And it was just kind of like I’m in a new city right now. I have no idea what’s going on. I don’t know how this is going to impact because you’re, you’re jumping into something that’s completely new. And now that I’m older, I’m like, oh my gosh, I can totally apply this to so many areas and digitally seeing where there are gaps that need to be filled, has been kind of like a thing for me and the community building part of it.
[00:04:58] I am someone who needs structure, but I will come up with ideas that are just completely out of the blue, like just whoa, like what’s going on. I remember a friend of mine who was creating her own nonprofit.
[00:05:11] Like I came up with these wild ideas to get money for her non-profit and it was just doing different things to connect communities. And so I see where people are being left out and I’m like, what can I do to bring that community into the fold? Because their opinion, their thoughts, their ideas are important.
[00:05:28] And one thing about City Year, which is really cool, is how they work with community leaders before they create a site in the city where they are thinking about going. It’s not an approach of we’re going to go to the city and we’re going to do this because it worked in this city. We need to work with community leaders to figure out what the needs of that particular community are. What resources do they have or what resources are they lacking? And how can we be part of the change that we’ll help the communities that are struggling the most?
[00:06:00] Sam Proulx: How do you do data collection well? Cause I think one of the things that happen when we’re collecting data, is people get left out at the data collection phase and then they continue to be left out through the rest of the process. How do you think about including people that you don’t even know about?
[00:06:17] Because they’re already being left out in the ways that we collect data and we collect information.
[00:06:22] Stephen Anfield: Sure. So for me, I feel like my experiences have kind of, when I say my experiences, I’ve been all over the place. Literally. They’ve been all over the place. I intentionally throughout my career have again, in City Year we have these things called PITW’s, which is putting idealism to work.
[00:06:39] And it’s kind of like these, these ideas and quotes to live by. And one of them is to do three squishy things a day, which means putting yourself out of your comfort zone. Because if you’re not doing that, then you’re not learning, you’re not growing.
[00:06:55] And a lot of that is okay. So with older people, I started at 24, I was definitely not older. But going into an organization where I’m working with older people, older volunteers and hearing what they’re going through. And, oh, Steven, can you help me figure out how to do this certain thing? How do I access this on the internet? Or what, what is it browser?
[00:07:18] That was one question I had to answer. And I was like, I had no idea that would be something I would need to answer. So it’s a lot of, I might know this information, but going back a bit and being like, okay, I am someone who is 50 or 60, what could potentially be some of the things that I need help with that I don’t know?
[00:07:39] I think even with that, when I think about public benefits, I would help older people find public benefits like snap or food stamps, and connect them that way. So it’s a lot of just thinking, like I’ve been in this situation or helping someone already, how can I apply that to a different situation that would help someone else? And then using that to then have data points and information to figure out what needs to be done.
[00:08:02] Sam Proulx: And then the challenge becomes, how do we scale it? Right?
[00:08:05] Stephen Anfield: Right.
[00:08:06] Sam Proulx: From the one to the many, without losing.
[00:08:08] Stephen Anfield: Correct. Absolutely.
[00:08:10] Nikki Nolan: So you sort of talked about this a tiny bit, and I hope you don’t mind me asking, you have an invisible disability. I have an invisible disability. How has your experience with that sort of shaped your career trajectory or your experience in life? I’m curious to learn a little bit more about that.
[00:08:27] Stephen Anfield: My ninth grade teacher was the first person, my biology teacher, excuse me, was the first person who kind of brought it to my attention. And I didn’t really pick up on anything until that period where she would see me get discouraged when I didn’t come up with the same solution that everyone else did.
[00:08:46] And it was just like a moment where it was like, Stephen, you know what? Like I see that you get discouraged when you are coming up with different solutions, but that is something that’s going to help you later on in life. And didn’t think anything of it until I had my first desk job where I had to sit at a computer for eight hours. And I was like, this is not, this is not it. This is not working for me. Prior to that, I was doing very active things. Like I was an orientation leader in college. I was a resident assistant. Those are things that don’t really involve having to sit and I need to be active.
[00:09:20] I need to be engaged all the time. So I feel like that’s been part of something that’s been present in my trajectory and it’s kind of helped me think about like, okay, when I go into something, there are certain characteristics that I need to be successful. And it’s part of the reason why I’m going back into social work or health human services is because I know that it’s not something where it’s going to be stagnant. There’s always something going on. There’s always someone who needs to be helped. There’s always a way that you can connect people to resources. And it’s just very active. There are always problems that can be solved for people. That really helped me figure out who I am and what I’m about and moving forward in my career and life in general.
[00:10:04] Sam Proulx: I was just chewing that over. What you said about finding alternative solutions, I think really fits. But one thing that I’ve been thinking about a lot is. To interact better with people who find alternative solutions. We need to a) make society more flexible and b) be open to alternative ways of interacting.
[00:10:26] Stephen Anfield: Correct.
[00:10:26] Sam Proulx: What do you think needs to happen there? Because I think everybody wants to include people these days, nobody seems to know, once you have a diverse group of people in the room, how to actually do it. I’d love to hear your opinions and thoughts about how society needs to get better and more flexible around the ways that we react and accept different inputs and provide different outputs.
[00:10:54] Stephen Anfield: You touched on that already. Flexibility is huge. Personally, I get up at 4:00 AM and that is not because I read these lists about how you have to be successful. You have to wake up at 4:00 AM because that’s just how I wake up. Like, I’m ready to go at 4:00 AM. My best ideas come out at 4am.
[00:11:13] And when you’re working a nine to five job that doesn’t necessarily work for you because it’s like, yeah, it doesn’t work.
[00:11:23] Sam Proulx: You and I are both ready for bed by 7:00 PM. Right?
[00:11:25] Stephen Anfield: Correct. And I’m already up and there’ve been times where I’ve had the nine to five job and I get to work an hour earlier. Then I still have to stay there until five, because those are the rules. And I’m like, but I’ve been here for an hour before you got here and I’m sending emails. I have things that are done.
[00:11:47] Why do I need to sit here? And work longer. Why, why am I doing that? And I think in positions I’ve been in, there’s no listening happening. People want to do things differently, but I wish they understood that everything is not going to be like what you expect it to be like, you need to roll with the punches.
[00:12:07] You need to be able to figure out what works best for people. If people are telling you that this is what works for me, then maybe figure out how you can meet them fully or even halfway. If it’s something that’s new, like, yes, it might be awkward for you or someone else, but there has to be some kind of leeway.
[00:12:27] And I think currently it’s very rigid and that’s something that’s not working.
[00:12:34] Sam Proulx: Is work from home helping? We hear a lot about flexibility and how we can do our own hours and we can do our own thing. But then sometimes it seems to feel like managers just expect you to be reachable from nine to five anyway. So you have to be there. What is your experience? Is it helping? You sounded excited there.
[00:12:50] Stephen Anfield: It is absolutely the best thing ever. It’s so awesome. The only thing for me that has been a challenge is setting boundaries. And part of being in the social and digital space is that there’s this expectation that you are on 24/7. And when you say no, there is this pushback, like, no, this is what you’re supposed to be doing if you’re working from home.
[00:13:19] And it’s like, no, I don’t think that’s the case. And I’m telling you when I’m working, I’m setting hours. I’m respecting myself. And I would hope that someone else could do the same. But I mean, generally speaking, I haven’t had that issue that many times. Working from home has been just a game changer.
[00:13:40] Like it’s been awesome. The stress level has even been noticeably less that my blood pressure has gone down. Awesome.
[00:13:51] Sam Proulx: One of the feedback pieces I got interestingly, as a fellow 4 AMer, is the feedback of, oh, if you’re sending me messages and emails at 4:30 in the morning, now you’re pressuring me to be online at 4:30 in the morning. And so you don’t get to complain when I send you messages at 10:00 at night.
[00:14:06] Are you feeling that? Are you struggling with that?
[00:14:10] Stephen Anfield: No, because the snooze option on email is what I use. If I’m on it for 4:30, 5:00 AM. I set it for, for some reason, I always choose 9:03 AM. If at 9:00 AM, I’m like, they’re not even up yet. Wait a few minutes.
[00:14:36] Sam Proulx: So in a very real way, snooze scheduling emails has almost become an assistive technology for you so you can get your work done without impacting your team.
[00:14:43] Stephen Anfield: Yes.
[00:14:45] Nikki Nolan: Oh, me too. I use that too. Slack has a scheduled send and it has been a godsend. Makes it so much easier. Cause I’m unlike you guys. I work really late into the night, so I don’t do well in the morning. And so I’m up super late and I will come up with a thought at midnight and be like, they don’t need to know this right now. Schedule send.
[00:15:11] Sam Proulx: Well, guess I’ve learned something I need to get better at today because I will just send you that message at four in the morning.
[00:15:18] Nikki Nolan: Sam. You’re doing great. Sam, you are doing great. Do what works for you. I just do that.
[00:15:25] Sam Proulx: before we get to our next question, let’s take a quick break to talk about our sponsor.
[00:15:29] Shane: Hi, I’m Shane the Platform Coordinator at Fable.
[00:15:31] I’m a full-time screen magnification user. And before becoming the Platform Coordinator, I started out as a member of our community of accessibility testers.
[00:15:41] Now I help support Fable’s customers as they work with us to best engage people with disabilities in every part of their research, testing and development.
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[00:16:21] Sam Proulx: Now that we’ve heard from our sponsor, let’s continue the interview.
[00:16:23] Nikki Nolan: Well, I’m going to shift us back in if that’s okay? What is a problem that you have solved that you’re incredibly proud of?
[00:16:31] Stephen Anfield: I was in President Obama’s first inaugural parade. And I was marching with a group of people and while we were there preparing, we realized that, oh wait, we need to be able to march in a block. And we hadn’t really considered that before that moment. And so I, being the person who did the marching band, taught them quickly, like maybe within 30 minutes, how to march in a block, how to dress the line, making sure that the lines are straight.
[00:17:00] And so that is why I just jumped in and was like, hey, I know how to do this. And this is something fun. I would say that’s one thing.
[00:17:10] Sam Proulx: That sounds like so much fun just to sort of be there in that moment.
[00:17:14] Stephen Anfield: Yeah.
Sam Proulx: It also sounds like something that is so important in ways that you don’t know about. Right? Like having the representation and having that happen probably has had effects and ripples down the line that you will never hear about.
[00:17:30] Stephen Anfield: Definitely.
[00:17:32] Nikki Nolan: It’s so nice when you can make those little adjustments in life and just feel you have a huge impact. For me, the biggest things that I feel like I have an impact on are when organizing too. Like I used to be the Pride Parade’s Assembly Manager here in San Francisco.
[00:17:45] Stephen Anfield: Nice. Okay.
[00:17:45] Nikki Nolan: Just getting people to be organized, like in physical space, I felt something so deep inside of me that I don’t feel like being on a computer. It’s really interesting.
[00:17:52] Stephen Anfield: Right.
[00:17:56] Sam Proulx: Hey, well, maybe the metaverse will make us feel like all of our creations. I’ve been embodied in physical space.
[00:18:01] Stephen Anfield: Oh, the metaverse.
[00:18:03] Nikki Nolan: So what do you feel has been your most significant success?
[00:18:06] Stephen Anfield: So sobriety. I quit drinking just before the pandemic started and I’m still not drinking. And so in February, it’ll be two years. And to do that during a pandemic and just kind of still be doing it. I’m really proud of that. And that’s something, it seems small. I don’t know, but that is something really significant for me and that really helped me.
[00:18:37] I would say even I never really understood how much it would make me anxious and I didn’t really understand that until I just cut it out. And I’m like, oh wow. And it’s been a completely different world. It’s not for everyone, but it works for me. And I feel like it helps me get through rough moments and whatnot.
[00:18:59] Sam Proulx: It’s funny how problems can sneak up on us. And I said, isn’t it right? Like you don’t realize it was a problem until you stop.
[00:19:05] Stephen Anfield: Yup.
[00:19:05] Sam Proulx: Yeah.
[00:19:06] Stephen Anfield: Right. Definitely.
[00:19:07] Sam Proulx: Yeah and of course, I mean, there are things that it’s okay for us to do in the good times and not okay for us to do in the bad times. It can be really difficult to realize the difference, right?
[00:19:19] Stephen Anfield: Correct. And I think that by cutting out alcohol, it also kind of gave me permission to figure out what else wasn’t needed in my life. Because I think we have a tendency to go through life and just kind of go with the flow and we don’t think about whether this really serves me anymore?
[00:19:36] So for me, additionally, like with alcohol, I also kind of went way back off of social media. That could be partly because I was involved with it for over a decade and having to be on 24/7 or having the thought that I needed to be. And now that I’m not, I’ve given myself that leeway to say, hey Stephen, do you know what? You don’t need to be on all hours of the day? Like if it doesn’t make you feel good, like you don’t have to sit there and read it.
[00:20:11] Sam Proulx: So for you, it was about reduction and just reducing the excess and the stuff. Right? Look, I know I have friends that I have had the experience with. Well, I’m going to stop drinking or I’m going to stop whatever vice so that I can replace it with. I I want this other thing, but for you, it was all about just reducing in general. It sounds like.
[00:20:28] Stephen Anfield: Yep. And it’s been awesome. I’m able to figure things out. I’m able to put things where they should be, and it’s not just a water hose of information.
[00:20:45] Nikki Nolan: It is so great. Like most of the people who are on season one, which is the season you’re on right now, are people who are deep in technology or have an integral interwebbing through technology. And it’s refreshing, and a totally sort of different thing that you’re someone pulling out of the technology. Someone who has been leading the way in different areas of digital and has been like, okay, well, this isn’t working. What are some of the things that you’ve learned along this path that have really been the things that are like, oh yeah, I realized this isn’t working?
[00:21:21] Stephen Anfield: They’re completely unrelated probably, but like just random things, like getting texts from scammers on my phone. Like I think everyone is pretty much annoyed by that. I was like, you know what, what can I do to change that? I just changed my phone number. And so I had my phone number for a number of years and just decided, what if I just changed it?
[00:21:45] So I don’t get those anymore, which is awesome. I started my Twitter account, an old Twitter account, in 2009. And that was one of the things I was just like, what would happen if I just deleted that old account and started over? And so that’s what I did in October. And one thing I didn’t realize was that I didn’t tell people that I was doing it.
[00:22:09] Now people are like, wait, I thought I was following you. And I’m like, I actually just deleted it and started over.
[00:22:18] Sam Proulx: Yeah. That can be hard. And people can be very judgmental.
[00:22:22] Stephen Anfield: Yes. I had no idea. Now I do get it. And if anyone is thinking about doing that, come up with a plan before you do it and then do it. It really is something that I needed to get done. I felt like when I told people, I got a lot of “why are you doing that?” Don’t do that.
[00:22:43] And I say, nope, that’s just for me. Like, I need to focus on what is good for me and not everyone else.
[00:22:48] Sam Proulx: It’s like as soon as you tell someone that you’re going to stop drinking, it’s like a victory for them if they can get you to have a beer.
[00:22:56] Stephen Anfield: Absolutely. Yeah. And that’s really uncomfortable because it’s I don’t really want to talk about it- I mean, sure, I do talk about it and I’m talking about it on a podcast, but it’s something where it’s like, if you go to a party and it’s like, why aren’t you drinking? And it’s like, what? Why are you drinking?
[00:23:16] Sam Proulx: You need to show your special license, to have the right to not do something.
[00:23:22] Stephen Anfield: Right.
[00:23:22] Nikki Nolan: I think it’s super interesting. It’s actually a conversation Sam and I have been having. This idea of like whose burden is things. And so I feel like a lot of the time, especially within disability, if you’re disabled, you have to overcome those access issues. You have to do it. Opposed to the other side coming back and meeting you.
[00:23:45] Stephen Anfield: Yeah.
[00:23:46] Sam Proulx: So I think that leads so well into another question that we have here, which is around frustration. You’ve been eliminating and cutting back and taking care of yourself and doing better and getting better. But what’s been throughout your career in technology, what’s been your biggest frustration?
[00:24:05] And is it still happening or have you managed to get rid of it, as you step back?
[00:24:10] Stephen Anfield: That’s a good question. I would say it’s not even related to reducing things, I would say in that space. It’s been really difficult to find other people who look like me. I would say that’s been a difficult thing. And I guess, especially with racial issues in our country, I wish people would think about how they’re communicating. Not only because of race, but just everything else. And it’s been difficult. I think that’s part of maybe why I’ve just kind of pulled away from things because it’s so much. And I’m like, okay, how can I get rid of that?
[00:24:53] How can I get rid of the things that are uncomfortable? And, yeah, I don’t even know if that answered the question.
[00:25:00] Sam Proulx: It did. Is there any kind of maybe a sense of, I’ve done my time. It’s time for someone else, or I can’t do this anymore. I can’t fight this anymore. And it’s not my job anymore maybe?
[00:25:11] Stephen Anfield: Yes. I feel like now that I’m going back into human services, that’s what I should have been doing in the first place, to be honest. Did I learn in the digital social space? Absolutely. I’m going to use what I’ve learned to help connect people to the resources that they need so that they can lead fulfilling lives.
[00:25:30] I’m ready to move on and do something else.
[00:25:34] Sam Proulx: So, I mean, you’ve really opened yourself up for this one then, as you sort of talked about moving on and passing on the torch.
[00:25:43] Stephen Anfield: Yeah.
[00:25:43] Sam Proulx: To the people who are like you, whether they share your challenges or whether they look like you or whatever it may be, what is the advice that you would give to someone who’s just taking their first steps into the tech industry?
[00:25:59] Stephen Anfield: Ooh. That is a really good question. I would say get a mentor if you can find one, they’re out there. And I would like to think that if someone needs to talk to someone, I’m more than willing to answer questions like how did you do this? Or how did you do that? A lot of it is figuring out different ways to do things.
[00:26:21] Something I’ve been thinking about recently is career advice. I don’t know who it’s for. I feel like a lot of things in my career have not been what has been prescribed. I’ve had to kind of make things for myself as I go along and be open to different experiences, I guess it would be one thing.
[00:26:40] And know what your non-negotiables are. I think I went into things or have done things where it’s like, I will let anything happen and or anything goes, and it’s like, but when you go into something and you can say, this is what I will not do, this is what I will not do. This is what I will accept. Just giving yourself permission to live your life and to understand that you are in control of that and don’t let anyone else push you around.
[00:27:08] Nikki Nolan: I feel like that’s career advice for me. I want to go back cause I feel like you might’ve had something to say, but that question that we were talking about other people not stepping up to meet you. I feel like you had something more to say there.
[00:27:26] Stephen Anfield: One thing that’s been really helpful is that I’m going to call them, I guess, allies or accomplices. I’ve had those in my career. They have fought for me when I felt like I couldn’t do it myself. What I mean is people who speak up and it’s like, when they can tell something is wrong and maybe I’m not in a situation where, or in an environment where I can speak up. Not because I don’t want to, it’s because I’m scared. Like if I speak up, what if I lose my job? And so having those people there and figuring out who they are, has been like something that has helped, so much. And so those are the people at every stage of my career, I just look for them. Who seem like they aren’t scared to use their voice, to talk about or bring attention to the things that may be affecting people who don’t have that privilege or that voice. Oftentimes I want to speak up, but I can’t just because of how things are built systemically. And when those people speak up, who are just aware, like it is like a relief and it’s just, I wish more people would do it.
[00:28:41] Because I don’t think they understand how much it helps. And yes, it might feel really uncomfortable for them, but they’re making someone else feel comfortable. And I think that’s something that people just need to realize. For anyone that’s done that for me and they listen to this, thank you so much. You know who you are.
[00:29:01] Sam Proulx: Awesome. I think the thing that you brought up and that really excited me, that I wanted to get into from both of you. I think the understanding these days is that good allyship involves good listening. But sometimes good allyship does involve speaking. How do you know when you are stepping too far out of your lane? When you are crossing the line? When you’re removing agency for someone else? As someone who I think has probably had the privilege to have good allies for those who want to be allies for those who want to help out, what tips would you give them about how to go beyond listening and how to be a good ally in speaking?
[00:29:44] Stephen Anfield: I think people underestimate how much just listening can be beneficial, and not be so quick to offer solutions. Sometimes it’s something so simple as saying, you know what, that’s really rough. Or you know what I’m thinking about you. It’s just little things that I don’t know if people need to do so much to be an ally in some cases, but in other cases, yes, it’s going to make you uncomfortable. And I think in a work setting, when you see something happening, speak up. If you feel like you’re stepping on someone or over someone, just say, I don’t know if this is what you’re trying to say, or I don’t know if I’m overstepping,
[00:30:26] I think it’s a lot of asking, how can I show up for you? Do you want me to speak up? Do you want me to do this? And you want me to do that? And this situation happened. Was there something I could have done differently that would have been a better way to handle that or to show up for you? We’re all gonna make mistakes. I get that. I don’t know how to answer that one. That’s a really difficult question.
[00:30:58] Nikki Nolan: I think what I’m hearing you say is that it’s good to keep open lines of communication and for people who want to be allies to listen, but to not only listen, but to ask people who have lived experiences, how can I step up for you? And do you want me to? And what can I do to support you?
[00:31:17] It’s really hard. I think Sam has talked about this where people like to walk up to you, Sam, and just grab your arm and assume you need help.
[00:31:24] Sam Proulx: Yeah. It happens all the time. And I think what you were saying is very critical too. I think there’s an assumption that people with disabilities are the same. And maybe because you would wish that I would speak in a particular situation, Nikki would rather than I did not.
[00:31:40] And that’s okay. You know what I mean? Like it’s okay for people to be different or maybe sometimes the other way around. But I think the mistake that some allies make, and maybe you agree with this, or maybe you don’t, is that they have one person who wants them to speak to a situation and they now assume that everybody does. And that’s how you should do it all the time.
[00:31:59] Stephen Anfield: Right. That is absolutely correct. Yep.
[00:32:01] Nikki Nolan: I think what’s really important, in everything, is that everybody is individual. Even if you have intersected with someone with a disability, that is the same. When you’ve met someone with a disability, you’ve met one person with a disability. You can’t make these broad assumptions and just better lines of communication.
[00:32:21] I feel like this transitions into a question that I should have asked earlier, what are some myths around disability that you see that you want to bust?
[00:32:28] Stephen Anfield: That you shouldn’t talk about it. That it’s the worst. I don’t know why people are so scared. I want to talk about it then. I am okay to listen. Does that answer the question?
[00:32:45] Nikki Nolan: That sounds like you want to bust the myth that disability is a topic that shouldn’t be talked about.
[00:32:53] Stephen Anfield: Right, right.
[00:32:54] Sam Proulx: Or that it’s something we are ashamed of in ourselves. There is a movement. Do you feel that our identity as people with disabilities is this something we should keep private?
[00:33:06] Stephen Anfield: I mean, I don’t know. I don’t know. Another thing I didn’t know was a disability is depression. I had not realized that that was a disability. And I think we need to talk about that. The pride part, not quite sure about. I don’t know. I think it fluctuates. It’s a case by case basis maybe.
[00:33:30] Nikki Nolan: Yeah, it’s hard.
[00:33:32] Stephen Anfield: Yeah.
[00:33:32] Nikki Nolan: It’s a hard one because we can all be good at fighting ableism by saying there’s disability, the word disability. There’s nothing wrong with it. If you perceive any kind of disability as a negative, that is bad. But also we don’t have to assume that everyone’s like, yay my chronic illness and is so prideful about it. But I do think there needs to be some form of visibility and just acceptance in the fact that just because you have a disability, it’s not a negative.
[00:34:03] Stephen Anfield: Correct. Exactly.
[00:34:05] Sam Proulx: Yeah, but I mean, we, as people with disabilities, maybe perhaps need to get better at allowing people to find their pride in their acceptance rather than forcing it on them. I mean, do you remember sort of in the queer community, 20 years back there was a thing going on where like everybody was doing deep studies at the famous historical people to like out them.
[00:34:28] Nikki Nolan: We have it in disability too. So, but basically, you know, you go back and you are like, was this person queer or not? Like in their time, wouldn’t have been able to, but like, people are doing that in the autism community too.
[00:34:41] Stephen Anfield: Yes.
[00:34:41] Nikki Nolan: They’re backwards, referencing all these people who were autistic.
[00:34:46] And I think someone, this happened where someone went back and self-diagnosed a bunch of historical autistic people. And they were all white except for one person. Like we don’t understand some of these things.
[00:35:05] Sam Proulx: Yeah.
[00:35:05] Nikki Nolan: And also there’s this problem with outing people too, within disabilities.
[00:35:09] Stephen Anfield: Absolutely.
[00:35:09] Nikki Nolan: Not everybody wants to be like disability is a protected class. We still have ableism issues around it.
[00:35:25] Stephen Anfield: Correct, correct.
[00:35:26] Nikki Nolan: And not everybody feels comfortable because we don’t live in a system which makes it safe to be a disabled person in our society. So we need to start dismantling all of it. I know I’m preaching.
[00:35:31] Stephen Anfield: No, on dismantling things, I was thinking about career advice and how a few days ago it was looking at a job description and I’m like, why is this so ableist? It’s like, what is going on? Like, wow. But at the bottom they have a very diverse workplace and it’s like, are you though, like, what’s going on?
[00:35:51] Like, it’s scary.
[00:35:52] Sam Proulx: We’re a diverse workplace. Just as long as you have a driver’s license, just in case we need it. It’s not part of your job description, but you have to have a driver’s license.
[00:36:00] Stephen Anfield: Right. You must be able to lift 15 pounds. It’s like, why, what?
[00:36:04] Nikki Nolan: Those signaling are system-level evidence that you don’t belong. And we really need to dismantle a lot of that stuff. If you work for a company that allows inaccessible technologies to be used in the workplace, like all of those things signal to disabled people, hey, you don’t belong here.
[00:36:21] Those are the little things that people don’t realize. I was actually recently on a panel with, it wasn’t a panel, it was the presentation that Sam invited me to. And someone asked “if we’re using a technology and nobody at our company is disabled, so they’re not having an access issue should we use that technology?”
[00:36:39] And my response was we all need to step up.
[00:36:43] Stephen Anfield: Right.
[00:36:43] Nikki Nolan: And say no, we are not going to use inaccessible technology, even if it’s not impacting us specifically. And that’s how we think people could be good allies if they can start cutting their ties to companies that are inaccessible and fight for and push forward to make sure that we do have accessible technology and accessible services and all that stuff.
[00:37:03] Stephen Anfield: Definitely.
[00:37:04] Nikki Nolan: I’ll get off my soap box.
[00:37:06] We’d love to end on this.
[00:37:08] Stephen Anfield: Okay.
[00:37:08] Nikki Nolan: We’re super curious, what was the first piece of technology you remember using and what was it for?
[00:37:12] Stephen Anfield: I had a Tandy computer from Radio Shack, and I feel like the disks were like bricks. They were massive. That’s all I remember. And I remember there being like a really sick programming book that came with it. And you essentially just get the code and it would have like a dot that would move around.
[00:37:31] And that was it. So it wasn’t anything major.
[00:37:36] Sam Proulx: Back in the days when we were all equal and typing in programs, we found them in a magazine.
[00:37:41] Stephen Anfield: Yes. I love how you mentioned multiple times that the conversation is ongoing and it’s something that people should talk about and something that you’re happy to talk about.
[00:37:51] Sam Proulx: So if people want to carry on that conversation, where are you comfortable with them finding you?
[00:37:55] Stephen Anfield: So I’m on Twitter. I’m @stephenanfield. I have a website that I just kind of revamped. It is an upgrade from my first website. It was on geocities. So we have that going. My contact page is not built yet, but I’m working on that. I think it mostly is. Either one works for me.
[00:38:20] Nikki Nolan: Thank you for being here. This was wonderful.
[00:38:23] Stephen Anfield: Thank you for having me.
[00:38:24] Sam Proulx: Absolutely.
Thanks for listening to Disability Bandwidth. If you liked this episode of Disability Bandwidth, please subscribe and share it with friends and family. Today’s episode was hosted by Sam Proulx and Nikki Nolan. Edited and produced by Nikki Nolan. Transcripts are written by Emma Klauber. Theme music is created by Efe Akmen.
Special thanks to everyone at Fable who without their support. This show would not be possible.
You can find out more about Disability Bandwidth on Twitter, @disability_band and Instagram, @disabilitybandwidth, or on our website https://disabilitybandwidth.com/.
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