Elise Roy is a Principal Architect at Salesforce and has spent her career involved in accessibility advocacy. In Episode 10, Elise talks about her motivations to change career paths and how to incorporate design thinking into product development to include the voices and needs of disabled users.

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Transcript:

​​[00:00:00] Music

​​[00:00:05] Nikki Nolan: Welcome to season one of Disability Bandwidth.

[00:00:11] Sam Proulx: A show where we talk with disability leaders each week about career, life, and technology.

[00:00:17] I’m Sam Proulx.

[00:00:17] Nikki Nolan: And I’m Nikki Nolan.

[00:00:19] Sam Proulx: Let’s get started.

[00:00:20] Nikki Nolan: Would you mind introducing yourself?

[00:00:22] Elise Roy: My name is Elise Roy. My pronouns are she/her. I am a Principal Architect at Salesforce and I have short brown hair glasses. I’m 40 or so, hate to admit that. And I am currently wearing a sweater. In my background, I am in my office and I have books in the background on the shelf and some pictures up, and there’s a blue wall behind me.

[00:00:52] Nikki Nolan: To get started, we would love to learn what made you change from being a lawyer to a designer?

[00:00:58] Elise Roy: That’s a great question. I think it all comes down to learning more about myself. I knew that I love advocacy and the ability to do good. I like the intellectual challenge that the law brought and the deep thinking, but I hated the day-to-day stuff. It was dry. It was boring. There wasn’t much room for creativity.

[00:01:22] And as a kid, I had always thought that I had wanted to be a designer, but I kind of got taken into the legal realm due to some of the advocacy work that I had been doing.

[00:01:36] Anyway, I was in Zambia at the time and I was 29 when I was making this decision. And I realized that people were expected to live there to be just 34 years old.

[00:01:50] And that kind of hit home to me. That life is short. So I decided to make that transition to design.

[00:01:57] Sam Proulx: Was there pressure for you to go into law? I know sometimes as people with disabilities, we can be pressured into careers where other people think that we are successful. Did you experience that pressure as you were growing up and making your career choices?

[00:02:16] Elise Roy: Yeah, I was definitely pressured to go into the law by my grandfather. He was always all about getting a license for something. So he really pressured me to go into the legal realm. But in terms of my disability, I think how that influenced things was that people saw me as a disability advocate and it made sense to pursue a legal degree to support that.

[00:02:44] Sam Proulx: Interesting. The other question I have about that journey is the law can be very focused on compliance, right? We need to comply with accessibility laws. We need to comply with diversity and inclusion.

[00:03:04] Did you find it hard when you moved from the law into the design to move away from thinking about compliance and about legal requirements and thinking more creatively? Or did that come naturally to you?

[00:03:19] Elise Roy: When I went into law, I found that my writing kind of became really dry and boring, whereas before it was more creative and I did struggle to get that back after leaving the law.

[00:03:34] So there’s definitely something there.

[00:03:36] I think that being a designer definitely allows me to bring more creativity to trying to solve problems and ask better questions.

[00:03:49] I’m working within user experience and that’s rooted in getting user feedback and being humble enough to know that we don’t have all the answers, and being a better listener.

[00:04:05] So it’s really made me flex those listening skills, the curiosity skills, the questioning skills, and making sure that I’m keeping myself honest. That I’m not jumping to conclusions.

[00:04:22] Nikki Nolan: Yeah, I think that that’s something that’s really, really interesting that happens. Sometimes we come in with this preconceived notion of what the solution to a problem is without fundamentally understanding what is the problem because we haven’t listened enough.

[00:04:38] So this sort of leads to my next question: what are some of those issues that arise when people have a problem with a preconceived solution?

[00:04:46] Elise Roy: Yeah, so a lot of problems arise. I think this is what we saw early in tech. Before we had user experience, as a part of the development process, we had engineers who were so used to this tech and thought that they were designing intuitive experiences, working to create those experiences. But then they realize, you know, everybody doesn’t have the mind of an engineer.

[00:05:15] And so it’s really important to make sure that we aren’t approaching problems with preconceived solutions. We need to recognize that we aren’t the experts here. The users are the experts. And you know, I also experienced that in terms of the disability realm and not just in terms of product design. But when I was a lawyer and working at the UN, what was unique about that process of writing the UN treaty that protected the rights of people with disabilities, as they actually for the first time, made sure that they involved people with disabilities in the process of creating that treaty. But I remember for the first time being exposed to the concept “nothing about us without us”.

[00:06:09] And that really recognized that we needed to have the voice of the people that we are designing this policy for integrated into this process because they understand their true needs and they can articulate them so that we can write a policy that truly addresses the problems that they’re faced with.

[00:06:35] And so that’s what I see, as also applying to the user experience space that we’re in now.

[00:06:42] Sam Proulx: It was interesting to me when you said users are the experts because I immediately thought of one place where design without users is still happening. And that tends to be in, unfortunately, some advocacy organizations. In the blind community, for example, there is a massive problem with people who have no experience wanting to redesign canes and other things. Is that problem for you and in the deaf community and how does that impact you and what you do?

[00:07:23] Elise Roy: So yeah, the deaf community is really trying to protect their voice and that’s why they’ve really advocated very strongly. For example, the president of Gallaudet University is someone who is deaf, the people who are representing them actually be deaf, because they recognize in order to solve something that they experience they’re voicing an understanding of that experience. It is vital to solving it.

[00:07:53] Sam Proulx: It’s so frustrating that this is something we have to fight for rather than it being the assumed normal. But of course, you should be represented by people who are part of your community.

[00:08:06] Nikki Nolan: It’s interesting hearing this because all three of us have different disabilities. And so it’s really, really interesting to see how segregated our communities become because of our needs not being met by society. So we have to become insulated because there are a lot of people who think that they do have solutions without lived experience. I know that in the autism community as well, there are organizations that are run by non-autistic people that are very damaging. And so I think that the disability space is a really interesting space.

So I think I’m gonna transition us. From a lot of the stuff I’ve seen, you are really into design thinking. What do you feel is the power of design thinking?

[00:08:53] Elise Roy: It’s powerful in terms of framing problems that we’re dealing with, making sure that we are framing the right problem. And it is powerful also in terms of helping you see patterns within data, and really helps us think outside the box.

[00:09:12] Nikki Nolan: I just realized not everyone’s gonna know what design thinking is. What is design thinking?

[00:09:18] Elise Roy: There are many different definitions. There’s human-centered design, there’s design thinking. And then it all intersects somewhat with what we do with user experience. And so, we often use design thinking to solve the problems that we’re dealing with.

[00:09:34] It’s basically, as you said, including the user in the process, but it’s also a process of going wide and then coming in narrow.

[00:09:43] Nikki Nolan: Mm-hmm.

[00:09:43] Elise Roy: And using various design methods and techniques and exercises to help us do that and to help us think deeper about the user. To help us frame the insights that we’re gathering.

[00:09:59] But it also pretty much follows a pretty typical design process of defining the problem and then ideating and then designing and doing some prototyping, then testing it with the users getting feedback. And it’s circular.

[00:10:15] Nikki Nolan: I love design thinking. It’s the way that as soon as I came across design thinking, all of a sudden everything sort of snapped in my brain. Like oh yeah. This is the way I already think, but now there’s a framework.

[00:10:26] And I do find that a lot of people ignore the first step, which is to define and discover or research and they jump straight to, I know what the problem is. I’m gonna start the solution.

[00:10:40] Elise Roy: I think that’s one of the best things about design thinking is that they immediately recognize we don’t know what the problem is, you know? They want you to throw out many ideas, not just focus on one and, you know, explore those. And that allows us to get a little bit more creative, think outside the box, and so forth.

[00:11:00] Sam Proulx: There is a fear in some companies that design thinking and especially inclusive design and being inclusive will slow things down and companies won’t be able to keep up the rapid movement that they feel they need to. Do you respond to that fear?

[00:11:21] Elise Roy: Yeah. So that’s definitely something that I’ve encountered. While there tends to be more upfront time in inclusive design, the ROI from inclusive design is astronomical in comparison. And so ultimately you make up for that time that you might invest upfront. What I see within inclusive design is because you are starting and innovating with edge users or stress cases you are immediately starting to build adaptability into your products and working to fit in the diverse needs that everybody has across the world, you know? That you have to solve for that, especially if you’re a global company. And so when you start there rather than average in building out slowly to meet those diverse needs, you jump ahead in that innovation process.

[00:12:30] And that’s where the value is in terms of inclusive design.

[00:12:34] Sam Proulx: There is also a cost to retro-fitting designs. Right?

[00:12:40] Nikki Nolan: Mm-hmm.

[00:12:40] Sam Proulx: We talk about how it costs 10% to do it right of what it would cost to retrofit. And we talk about the finances of that. But I think retrofitting existing designs also has an effect on the designer.

[00:12:58] Have you had to retrofit a product with a design that didn’t take accessibility into account? And if so, what was that experience like? Was it more stressful for you? Was it less pleasurable to have to refit an existing thing to be accessible to more people?

[00:13:16] Elise Roy: Oh, what that tends to do is exactly, as you said, it tends to frustrate people. It tends to make that much more time that you have to take to get people on board. To find the people who may have been doing that code that you are working on and maybe it’s gone and then they don’t understand how to change that code and everything else that’s involved. And then it could also be affecting the way that users interact with something which could also involve education as well, that you have to solve for in the future. And so there’s so much that goes into the retrofitting. There’s frustrations on all ends from engineers to designers to product managers.

[00:14:07] So for sure, if you can avoid having to retrofit, if you can think about accessibility and inclusive design and design it in from the start, then you save frustration time. All of that and lots of money.

[00:14:22] Sam Proulx: So while we’re talking about frustration, why don’t we segue into, what has been the biggest frustration in your career, and is it still happening?

[00:14:34] Elise Roy: So this is still happening sometimes, but it’s getting better and better. And that’s in designing for disability as something an add-on. That’s something that we should just do because we’re doing good. Rather than recognizing that well, yes, it’s doing good, but it’s also about the huge value that the unique perspective of people with disabilities brings to our development process.

[00:15:08] When we do inclusive design, we’re bringing them in, we’re talking with them and we’re learning from their experiences with a difference. And learning about opportunities in our design to make them more innovative. That and make them more user-friendly for all users. We’re learning how to make our products more intuitive. We’re learning how to simplify them, to make them more adaptable to different experiences that people might be momentarily experiencing. So, this goes back to the fact that we all experience disability at one time, at different times in our lives. We might be holding something in our arms, a package or something, and at that moment we have only the use of one arm. And so we are similar to disseminate to who might have an implication. And so all of that, designing for that. Designing for those differences and different situations and disability means that we’re designing adaptability into our experiences. And really making sure that they are meeting the diverse needs that users might have.

[00:16:34] Nikki Nolan: Yeah, I think you touched on something interesting about situational disability. Can you explain situational disability to people who might not understand what situational disability is?

[00:16:43] Elise Roy: There are really three types of disabilities that exist that we like to think about in terms of inclusive design. There’s permanent disabilities, which is a disability that somebody lives with day in, day out, 24/7. I’m deaf. That’s one example of a permanent disability. Then there’s temporary disabilities. Those are disabilities where we might have for a limited amount of time. So we might break our wrist and have to wear a cast for a couple of weeks or a couple of months. And so we are temporarily disabled, but eventually we’ll heal. Then there’s situational disabilities and that’s when we are in certain situations. It’s the environment of that situation that makes us momentarily have a disability. An example that I gave was that somebody might be holding something in their arms. In that situation, it is essentially the same as someone who has mobility issues in their arms.

[00:17:49] Sam Proulx: And then of course there’s also age-related disability right? Disability is the only identity that everyone is going to take on at some point in their lives. Very probably. And that sort of leads into something else is that I feel strongly and I agree that people with disabilities can’t be a charity.

[00:18:13] If it’s socially good, it’s just for charitable reasons. And there are more important reasons than that.

[00:18:21] Elise Roy: Exactly. Yeah. And that’s my frustration when people think of this as charitable good, like doing charitable good. I’m hoping instead that we are slowly shifting people to see the value of difference. How that is valuable and helps us think outside the box valuable and different ways of experiencing life. Enjoying it and the diversity that comes with it. Some of my most interesting friends are people with disabilities. I have a friend who has no internal voice and is on the spectrum. And I can’t stop asking her questions because it’s just so fascinating to me to try and think about what her world is like.

[00:19:05] Sam Proulx: Absolutely.

[00:19:06] Before we get to our next question, let’s take a quick break to talk about our sponsor.

[00:19:10] Lynette: Hi, I’m Lynette. I’m the Community Manager at Fable. I’m also a full-time screen reader user. And before becoming the Community Manager, I started out as a member of our community of accessibility testers. Now I help build and support the community of assistive technology users that powers everything we do here at fable.

[00:19:28] If you’re listening to this podcast, you probably know just how important it is to integrate the voices of people with disabilities into every aspect of your accessibility journey.

[00:19:39] Fable could help you do that from improving your team’s accessibility training with Fable Up-skill to working directly with assistive technology users or with Fable Engage, we can help you take the next step on your accessibility journey. To learn more, please check out our website www.makeitfable.com.

[00:19:59] Sam Proulx: And with that, we’re back.

[00:20:00] Let’s get on with the interview.

[00:20:01] Nikki Nolan: Let’s jump into what has been your biggest success?

[00:20:06] Elise Roy: I don’t see it necessarily as my biggest success, but something that I’m proud of in terms of the impact it had, was the Ted Talk that I gave. After that talk, I was so humbled. And so in awe that I heard from people from all of the worlds who had taken that message and implemented it. And it motivated them to create businesses, to create different products, to make all sorts of changes happen.

[00:20:41] And so, that was really, really something that I feel so grateful to be given that opportunity to give the Ted Talk and also to have these wonderful, fabulous individuals who put in that sweat, amplified that message and created some incredible things from that.

[00:21:07] Nikki Nolan: Yeah, it was a fantastic talk. I’m really curious, what are some myths around disability that you wanna bust?

[00:21:14] Elise Roy: Is disability necessarily a bad thing, a negative thing? I think it depends on how you frame it. In terms of neurodiversity, for example, or ADHD, it’s a skill that we really need and it often needs unprecedented innovation. There’s some pretty famous innovators out there who had ADHD., Richard Branson, I think. Some others who have really changed the world because they’re able to take this, kind of, I think of it as a Speedy Gonzales perspective. They can go through information really quickly and then create this framework and see these connections that others might not see.

[00:22:02] So it really depends on how you frame disability, also in terms of deafness. What would happen if we all spoke in sign language? Would I have a disability? It’s really society that’s making my disability in many ways. And we’ve also found that people who are raised learning sign language actually have a more developed right side of their brain. And so they tend to be better on right side brain functions. And so it’s pretty fascinating to see.

[00:22:42] Nikki Nolan: We’re getting really close to the end and we love to end with this super curious question. What was the first piece of technology you remember using and what was it for?

[00:22:52] Elise Roy: One of the most impactful first ish not first, by the way, early technologies is email. When I used email, that was just life-altering. It felt as if my social life opened up because I went to a school where people lived far away and it was hard to stay in touch. I couldn’t talk to people on the phone. And so email allowed me to connect with my friends much more easily, and to keep in touch and to develop a deeper relationships. To check-in on homework, all of that. I had missed it before. so that was really a huge, huge change for me. And it also built up my confidence as well.

[00:23:45] Sam Proulx: Yeah, it’s similar for me for different reasons. One feeling I remember clearly is that for the first time it became possible to email back and forth with someone and have them not know that you are a person with a disability. Did you have that experience as well? Was that also impactful for you?

[00:24:17] Elise Roy: Yeah, it’s sort of leveled the playing field in many ways, for sure. That and then now the captioning, the auto-captioning on these meetings that we have. Like Zoom and Google meetings. That is something similar that just kind of levels the playing field for me. I’m not sure how I would have really functioned at the level I did through this pandemic if I didn’t have access to captioning for meetings.

[00:24:35] Nikki Nolan: And what’s really interesting for me is that for my disability, when we move to a more text-based thing, being dyslexic, all of a sudden people saw my disability. So I think that’s really, it’s just really interesting to see the diversity within us all and like how it was really uplifting for both of you and for me, having to move to a text-based system, was confidence diminishing for me. For me to the point where now that we work remotely and we’re working mostly through a lot of text-based mediums, but I feel less confident in my abilities. It’s really interesting.

[00:25:17] Elise Roy: I hear you. I hear you. And that’s something that I keep seeing. And again too sometimes is in the evolution of technology. We all of a sudden start including one type of disability and then excluding another disability as we like to continue to evolve. And that’s why it’s so important to make sure that we design a variety of ways to access that same experience.

[00:25:42] Nikki Nolan: Yeah.

[00:25:42] Sam Proulx: Flexibility is so critical and I think there is sometimes a tendency- I don’t know if you agree with this or not and I’ll find out I think the tendency of society to play people with disabilities off against each other.

[00:26:00] If a thing is being captioned, there’s longer money to describe it.

[00:26:04] Or to think that their needs will conflict in ways that can’t be overcome.

[00:26:09] Have you noticed that? How do you handle it and respond to it if you have?

[00:26:13] Elise Roy: That’s a great, great observation. I’ve definitely noticed people struggling to include and make an experience kind of as inclusive as possible. And I think there, what you hit on is the difference between universal design and inclusive design. Universal design is trying to design one thing to be as inclusive as possible for as many people and disabilities as possible.

[00:26:43] And inclusive design instead take an approach, can we design a variety of ways to access this experience? So it might not be building that functionality into one single source but instead looking at a variety of ways to do that.

[00:27:02] Sam Proulx: This has been so much fun. Thanks so much for taking the time to talk with us today. I’ve loved this conversation, but it is an ongoing conversation and there is more work to do. So if people would like to learn more and continue the conversation, where can they find you?

[00:27:21] Elise Roy: I’m on LinkedIn, under my name Elise Roy and also on Twitter at @eliseroy. So please feel free to reach out. I love hearing from people and hearing all of it. I think it’s so important to hear from different people. Because those different perspectives are really what enriches things for me. Enriches my own practice and design and user experience.

[00:27:47] Sam Proulx: Thanks so much.

[00:27:48] Elise Roy: This has been a great conversation. I’ve really enjoyed it.

[00:27:51] Nikki Nolan: Thanks for listening to Disability Bandwidth. If you liked this episode of Disability Bandwidth, please subscribe and share it with friends and family. Today’s episode was hosted by Sam Proulx and Nikki Nolan. Edited and produced by Nikki Nolan. Transcripts are written by Emma Klauber. Theme music is created by Efe Akmen.

[00:28:07] Special thanks to everyone at Fable who without their support. This show would not be possible.

You can find out more about Disability Bandwidth on Twitter, @disability_band and Instagram, @disabilitybandwidth, or on our website https://disabilitybandwidth.com/.

 

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